Hey, Jeff, how do you feel about studying? The young Jeff, the 13-year-old Jeff, who liked to get in trouble, would say studying sucks, but the collegiate Jeff would probably say studying is good because it'll get you paid more. Excellent, very smart. Do you do any studying now? Oh yeah, I mean, I'm a producer. That's all I have to do is study. I study politics, study, you know, you name it, wines when I've got Kristen Ellis coming on one of our shows. Oh, you're sweet. You're a smart guy. I study. I study wine a lot. I've heard. It can be daunting. It can be boring at times, but what I study for, which is the WSET diploma, is not even close to what our guest is studying for, and that is the coveted Master of Wine certification. Do you call it a certification, Mike? Designation? Designation, sure. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Mike Kush. He is the craziest person I know because he is going for the MW designation. Well, thank you. So hard, man. Kudos. Well, thank you. It's a journey. And I'm just sort of at the beginning of the path. It's definitely a challenge. So Mike Kush, you guys, winemaker all over the world, right? You make wine in Portugal. You make wine in New Zealand. I do. I go back and forth between New Zealand, Central Otago and the Dora in Portugal. And I'm a Chicagoan. And I come back just to Chicago for just a little bit now and over the summer. Where have you made wine? So where else? In my journeys. So even though I'm from Chicago, started in California, worked in Palin Marouchet and Burgundy and the Mosul, worked in South Africa, worked in Argentina, Sonoma County. And it's of all these places, I continue to go back to both Central Otago, New Zealand, the Dora, and Portugal. It's just about 10 years in each of those places. Did you just kind of fall in love with those places? No, for me, gosh, it's sort of hard to sort of say. If anything, I would say fate. I never would have anticipated I would have been in these two places. It's just how life has taken us. But I'm very passionate. They're both unique and different. Old world with Douro and new world with New Zealand. Cool climate versus warm climate. Single varietal versus blends. And it's not just been a real pleasure and honor to be able to do my work in each of these places. How many vintages do you have with your with your brand, Chasing Harvest, which is your wine that comes out of both Portugal and New Zealand? Our very first vintage was 2009, and we've continued to go back and forth between those two places since then. It's a lot of times in the wine industry, your experience is often gauged by the number of vintages that you work, and this ability to go back and forth between the hemispheres since the seasons are opposite, has put me in a position where maybe I've Wow. And what's your product range at Chasing Harvest? How many different wines do you offer? So we have a handful of different wines. We're pretty small, passionate, handcrafted wines in Central Itago, which is a region that is known for Pinot Noir. And 70% of our plantings in the region are dedicated to Pinot Noir. So we produce a Pinot Noir and then Riesling, which many would consider to be its most characterful white varietal from that region. Also a Rosé. And then in Douro, I focus on the red blends of the Portuguese varietals from some old vines and from a very special vineyard. And I also do a little bit more unusual, but also a white from the region as well, also from some old vines. Wow. So you make it all. I try. On top of all of that, wife, kid, winemaking, 20-something vintages, you decided to go into the Master of Wine program. Right. What kind of spurred this decision for you? Oh, and that too. It's not to say it's a sort of a clear path for me, but wine is a beverage, but it's an industry. And it's something that just elicits passions on all sides. I mean, if you're a consumer to you work in the trade and to those of us that do winemaking, and it's something that's very passionate for a lot of us. And so this went back, I was doing a little bit of consulting for a vineyard that's in Priora, which is just outside of Barcelona. And I had an opportunity to meet some master wines and also some candidates for the master wine, the students. And it was just great to meet all of these passionate individuals from all over the world, from Asia, Europe, from the Americas. And we asked each other a lot of questions. And it was just exciting. And for me, after giving it some thought, it is a way for me to pursue this passion in just a little bit different way and to expose myself to new wines, wines that I may have not been as familiar with and to learn new things. And so although it certainly is challenging, it's been a very exciting journey so far. How many MWs are there? Well, I think the number, it's only in the 300s. It's like 360, I think, or something kind of close to that in the world. And even though the Institute, the Masters of Wine, is based in London, it's an international organization, and so there's representation among the MWs from around the world. And also for those of us who are candidates or students, I think there's about 300 of us from all over. Right. And you say candidates, is there a qualification process? And I imagine someone, some old guy with a long, like, waving white hair in a robe is asking you everything you know about wine and everywhere you've been about wine and say, well, no, you didn't cut it next, that kind of thing. The St. Peter of wine. Wow. Well, yeah, it is something you apply for. There are many students that come from the WSET program, which is absolutely an intense program in its own right. And then with some examination to get into the program, plus some references, they will evaluate that. And then you get accepted into the program. So then you sort of begin the journey. That sounds daunting just listening to you. Yeah. So what do you do to absorb all of this? And every MW has kind of maybe pursued it a little bit different of a way. And the program is structured in this way in which there is the theory side, and ultimately the examination that you take, it's essay based, and the theory, and that applies to viticulture and analogy, and the handling of wine, and the business of wine, plus contemporary issues. And then there's the practical side, which is the wines, it's the blind tasting, and that can be any relevant wine from anywhere in the world. And so how one prepares for the theory side versus one prepares for the practical blind tasting side are different. I wish I had a more regimented routine, but with our travels, we do two vintages per year, and that could be seven days a week, 12 hours a day. So between, you know, three different continents, I fit in as much study as I can, and it can vary a little bit, sort of depending upon the place that I happen to be in. Literally, I would be a master of wine, make wine and burgundy, so I could just call myself the master of my domain. Like I would go, I would spend a hundred grand, ten years studying for that one joke. Dedication. I'll do it. You're still master of your domain. I am king of the county. You? Lord of the manor. I'm queen of the castle. And what's the final test for you? Is it seven hours of talking about wine and five hours of drinking wine? I mean, what is? Oh, wait, can I interrupt? I have the 2017 theory exam right here. I printed out. It only weighs a couple pounds. Right. Wow. It's a multiple day examination and it's essay based. The practical, which is the blind tasting part. So on three successive days, there will be 12 wines put in front of me blind. And then there'll be a series of questions related to those wines. And you have about two hours and 15 minutes to go through and answer these questions. So oftentimes having to identify these wines as accurately as you can while answering these questions. Down to the vintage, if you if you can. For sure. Yeah. No, for sure. That's hard. So, I mean, think about this. Mike has to know every wine all over the world, the grape, how it's made, but also then the year it's produced. So it's a 2013 or 14 or 15. It's crazy. And for example, I'm looking at this like question four, wines of seven and eight are made predominantly from the same grape variety. And then considering that, you've got to answer all these spec questions about it. And that's. Thank God they give you something. Yeah, I was just thinking like, yeah, I mean, that information alone means very little to me, but I hope it would mean a lot more to you. And one of these questions I love because you're talking about the contemporary piece of this and how it is changing, it's progressed. You've got a great question here. You inherit the equivalent of 10 million US dollars and want to invest in the wine industry. How would you spend your money to attract the greatest return on investment? Please explain your logic. And you have to write a thousand word essay on that. That's a great question. No, and that's another part of the program that I really enjoy. I mean, it is this, you know, it expects critical thinking. It's open ended. You know, sometimes there isn't always a right answer in the wine world, just like in many industries. And so the creativity to kind of think through, but at the same time, have a command of facts and market and relevant examples from around the world would be an important component of trying to answer that question successfully. I kind of like how these questions are a little bit better than you can get in some exams and diploma, because you just get one word. You just get Fino, and that's it. Or you just get yeast, and then you have to just go for it. And this gives you a little bit of direction, and I do like that. Oh, no, for sure. Yeah, for sure. They're very thoughtful about the questions that they're going to ask. And I love this question. Has science taken away the romance of wine? I mean, that's a great question, because I would say no, because it's an art as much as it is a science. But I would say yes, because it's a science as much now in the bulk wine industry, as much as it is an art without the science. You know what I mean? Like, for sure. And I think that's an excellent example of a question, which, yeah, there's no right answer. It is a question that is testing the student to articulate a response. Yeah, whatever you say, can you back it up with relevant information and make a coherent argument that's three and a half pages long, please? Enjoy yourself. How long will you spend preparing for this? I mean, is it a year? Is it two years? Is it eight months? I mean, what? Yeah, the amount of time in the program is, to some extent, is not quite determined. At minimum, it would be three years. So I am through my first year and it's broken up into different stages of stage one, stage two, stage three. And so I've just completed stage one. I had an examination in San Francisco this past June and I successfully passed and so I'm on to stage two. At the end of stage two, this is this more daunting sort of examination with the multiple days with, and it could take a couple of years to be able to get through this stage and this tends to be perhaps the most difficult. And then beyond that, there is a research paper, a dissertation that one completes. And then after that, if you've successfully completed it all, then yeah, you will have completed the program. So minimum three years, although that is quite an accomplishment if somebody is able to do that. And it could certainly be a bit longer from there. Well, plus, I mean, just having to expose yourself to all the wines. So the time, right, and then the money spent on all the wines, I mean, it's just, it's crazy, it could take, it takes people, three years is not humanly normal, right? I mean, it's like, isn't it like a seven-year average oftentimes for people of five? I mean, everyone's different, I suppose. But don't they have kind of a mandate for... And then they do as well, too, at some point. And it is, it's the nature of the program as well, too. You are by no means guaranteed success. Sure. And for myself, I look at it that I, I mean, I've already have. You gain just a lot of things. Like I said, it's an opportunity for me to pursue my passion a little bit different of a way. I've learned a lot. I meet a lot of great, interesting, passionate people from all over the world. And so there's a lot to be gained from it. And yes, as opposed to some education programs where you commit yourself and you do your studying, unfortunately, the challenge is great enough that, yeah, there is not necessarily a guaranteed degree of success. And even if you don't succeed, not saying you won't, but even if you don't, you still will have a lot of things you've pulled from the experience, the process that will benefit you. Yeah, absolutely. And you get more than one crack at taking the final piece of this, right? It's not like, oh, here's your one chance. You can have multiple opportunities to sit for this examination, but up to a certain point. And then if at that point you haven't successfully passed, then... They're like, listen, we gotta talk. Yeah, like, you're cool, but this is just not working for me. It's not us, it's you. Yeah, exactly. So Mike, I found a question I think that's perfect for you. We do our customer Q&A. I'm not sure if you're familiar, but our lucky customers can win a $20 gift card. If they write in at Binny's Bev on Twitter, if we pick their question, we give them 20 bucks to spend in the store on whatever they want. As long as it's in stock. Hopefully some port. Yeah, exactly. For sure. Yeah, any Portuguese or New Zealand wines, please. So Kevin Mills wrote in, so congratulations, Kevin, before we even get to your question. I tend to drink wines in the Willamette Valley region in Oregon. Are there good wine regions I should consider that relate to Pinot Noir? For sure. That's New Zealand, baby, right? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, and obviously Willamette Valley, I mean, it's just a world class area for Pinot Noir. I love it. I love the wines. Yeah. And I mean, it's a Pinot is obviously a wine I'm very passionate about because the work that I do in New Zealand is largely focused on Pinot Noir. And for me, yeah, the Willamette Valley pinot, I think can be a bit reminiscent of some of the pinot from New Zealand and in particular, Central Otago. So certainly, if someone was interested to explore Pinot Noir in a little bit different of an expression, but had some a bit of some new worlds and characteristics, but also offered some earthiness or savoriness or a bit of a structured sort of an element, then yeah, New Zealand and Central Otago or Martin borough would certainly be two places. And then you can certainly also look to the old world as well, too, and then go back to Burgundy and look at, you know, sort of the origin. Yeah, the progenitor of all things, Pinot Noir, go back to go back to the homeland. Right. But I think New Zealand is a place that's oftentimes overlooked, because Sauvignon Blanc is, I think, just over 75% of export from the country. Pinot Noir just doesn't roll off the tongue when one thinks of New Zealand wines and vice versa. So I think it's a really, it's a great thing for us to kind of shine some light on Pinot from New Zealand, because they are fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, Marlboro, which makes for a very distinctive style of Sauvignon Blanc, and Central Tago does not really have Sauvignon Blanc, but it is, New Zealand being a couple islands, it's cool climate, it's perfect for Pinot Noir, and certainly makes You make a Pinot at Chasing Harvest. You would carry it at Binny's as well, both of them, I think. I'm very lucky that it is available there. Shameless plug, man. Yeah, buy it up. So Kevin, I think you found your next bottle of Pinot Noir at Chasing Harvest in New Zealand. So thanks, Kevin. Congrats to you. Ladies and gentlemen, so happy to have you again. Thank you, Mike, for joining us. My pleasure. It was a pleasure to talk about the Master of Wine program. And keep writing in with your questions, guys. Keep tasting and we'll see you next time.