Welcome to another edition of Barrel to Bottle with Binny's Beverage Depot. Kristin Ellis. Jeff Carlin, how are you today? I'm very well. What's on tap this week? Hey man, I'm really excited because I got to interview one of the most iconic winemakers and consultants in the world, Paul Hobbs. Paul Hobbs, I know that name. I've seen that name. Of course you have. He's everywhere. So his career is just stellar. He came up to us in Highland Park to do a seminar for a sold out room to listen to the guy speak, the breadth of history, the knowledge. I mean, it's not just the fact that he's like a cool geek. It's just like the dude can really tell a story and can keep a captive audience for two hours. People do not want to leave. It was fun, super fun to watch. If I wanted to go to one of these events that feature someone like a Paul Hobbs, which is amazing. It's crazy. So the program is called Continuing Education, and it's a chain wide program. We have a lot of stuff that happens in the city up in Highland Park, over at Naperville. And when these big names come in, they come to us and we say, hey, please get in front of our people. Let's taste the wines, let's tell the stories. And you just never know what you're going to get. Over my years of experience hosting this program, I got to say Paul Hobbs was just one of my favorites. So he very graciously came in early and we got to sit down together and talk about him, his ventures, his experience in wine, who his icons are, his experience down in Argentina. So without further ado, so welcome back to Chicago. Thank you very much. And so how many times have you been here? Have you been keeping count? Well, not really. I've been keeping count, but I went to the University of Notre Dame, not far away, so and then I have family that lived in the North, Brooke, Glencoe area as well. Not an immediate family, but a cousin. And so one of my brothers went to the Kellogg School of Business Administration. Oh, okay, cool. As well. All right, so you're very familiar with your surroundings here. I'm relatively familiar. I mean, I don't get to Chicago that often, to be honest with you. Lately, it's probably like every other year or something of that. Okay, well, yeah, that's plenty. Awesome. It's a beautiful city. It is, and it's a great town to eat food in, don't you think? Well, I've had it since it's inspired. Yeah, it's an inspired town. When I moved here, it was said that it was the most important food town in the states at the time, and I was like, perfect timing again. Just slipped right in. So we're happy to have you back. Is that the reason you moved in? Well, it just made it even better, made it sweeter. Let's say that. So I've got a couple of questions. Obviously, you're here to take part in our program called Continuing Education. So you're going to do a seminar tonight. And you are an iconic winemaker for so many people. And I just want to know, when you were younger, who were your icons then and who are your icons now? And has that changed? Well, I mean, this is a long time ago, of course. We're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 years ago when it began, my career. And so obviously, France has a place, and then it would depend on the type of wine or what not. So my icons happened to be whoever were top producers for a given type of wine. So if it was Pinot Noir, icons would be some Henri Jaillet for example, or folks Domaine de l'Opus de Conti. Yes. In general, in California, I went to work for one of my icons, that was Robert Mondavi. And you were around during the Genesis of Opus One? Correct. Did you have a direct hand in that? I think you could say I did. The Opus One started in 1979 with Mouton Rochield, and I was just a budding apprentice wine maker. Mr. Mondavi asked me to join the inaugural team. So yes, I suppose I had a hand as one of the original winemakers. Did you have a feeling at the time that that was going to be something special, just knowing the partnership and what was going into it, and the vineyards and so on and so forth? Like you just knew you were going to be part of something historic? I think we all knew right out of the gates that we were privileged to be, this thing was happening. Yeah. And there hadn't been that many joint ventures of any of that magnitude ever in the history of time, in the annals of time. So it was clear that that was, yes, I think we were aware of that. It was going to be something fantastic. Yes. We didn't know how it would play out, in fact, I don't think even Mr. Mondale didn't have a good sense of how it would play out, so that part of it was magical as well. Yeah, you didn't know the how, but you knew the what. And that's kind of what's important. So nowadays then, you have your hand in so many different places, you are known as one of the most famous consultants on the Globes. You're a Globetrotting guy. Do you like to be considered as that sort of Globetrotter, country to country, continent to continent, keep it moving? Do you think you kind of found your home in more or less being a nomad? Well, it's not probably, a nomad might be a mischaracterization because it's more grounded than that. I find it very rewarding. I didn't set out to become that. It's sort of a serendipitous through one thing or another. As you know in life, that's how it works. So you try something and then something bubbles up and you say, okay, I'll give that a try because that sort of makes sense and it's exciting. And then once you achieve a certain success, other people recognize that, well, maybe you have some abilities or some qualities that, so other people want you. And so the phone keeps ringing. And then it becomes a problem of not overeating at this mortgage board. Right. But it's been a very, I mean, sometimes I would wonder, for example, I was invited to Hungary and the project was extremely interesting. And I loved the sweet wines of the Tokai region, but I didn't see how I would be able to make any kind of contribution. And yet... Why did you kind of see that for yourself, not being able to help at the time? Well, I wasn't an expert in those wines. I mean, I had worked on a bit at the school in Sauternes, the Faux Blanche, on making Sauternes wines. I had style wines that I had made those wines in California at a time or two, with real botcher-sized grapes. But to actually go to one of the most revered regions of the world and interact with their best winemakers seemed to be ludicrous, that I would be invited, or they thought that I could be of any help. As it's proven, however, over time, that each time I've gone someplace, I've found a way to contribute. And so that's built my confidence, and I'm more relaxed about going into places or even doing things that I might not know. But I've always stayed with still wines. I'm not in the world of sparkling or spirits. Today, when you're going to do our seminar here in a little bit, you're going to do a by hemisphere tasting, and you'll be speaking about your ventures in California, but then comparing them a bit and contrasting to what you're doing down in Argentina. And would you say that your early work in Argentina kind of started your consulting career? Do you think that that really launched you into where you are today? International consulting without a doubt. I had actually started some consulting off the record for Peter Michael Winery in 1990, so it was about the same time. I began my consulting in Argentina in 89. And so, I don't think those two were that, they were kind of ran independent, and one wasn't aware of the other. But certainly Argentina did kind of launch my international work, yes, and my international profile. And I think it actually helped for other of the top. There's really, I suppose, three or four top consultants in the world, wine consultants. I never actually planned to be that, as I think I may have said at the outset. And so, I mean, the fact that I'm in this group is a bit odd, because I prefer building and running wineries and companies. That's my primary focus. Do you remember the first, how you felt the first time you got the plane in Argentina, and you first set foot there? Do you remember the feeling? Can you kind of describe? Well, I'll never forget it. My first touchdown point in South America was Santiago, Chile. And that was a Quonset hut. Here's a fairly international city, and all they had were Quonset huts. So the new airport that people see today didn't exist for some years. So you felt probably like landing someplace in the middle of nowhere. And fortunately, when you got in the town, they were really bustling and very, I would say cosmopolitan. But the airports were not a place that just to give you a sense of comfort. Just desolate, yeah? Yeah, it all worked out. Yeah, that's great. Good for you. So when you started in Argentina, there were some, I don't want to say problems, but issues that you helped kind of clean up both in the vineyard and then in the winery. Can you sort of speak to that? Well, I mean, when I went to Argentina, I was really not intended to go there. First of all, I went to Chile, and that was 88, March of 88. Chile was being touted as the newest, most interesting new wine region of the world, and maybe with the region that could arguably be said to have the best climate for quality wine. And so, but various things happened, and I ended up meeting up with an old classmate, a friend of mine, Jorge Catena. And so we drove over the Andes on a Friday morning into what I had understood to be the world's worst wine region, Mendoza, Argentina. In those days, it had a terrible reputation. Just kind of plonky, plonky wine, yeah. And oxidized wines and so on and so forth, old wineries, too hot, couldn't forget growing high quality grapes. But, you know, maybe what happened, it was serendipitous. I was not planning to go to Argentina, some things happened in Chile, and Catena came there, so I just decided on the spur of the moment that I wanted to see. He had been inviting me for many, many years to go. But driving in would be different than flying in. When flying in, you don't really see what's available in the mountains. And so I thought, oh, these are interesting soils, cooler, what would finally be cooler climates and everything. So that's where I wanted to go back. But all the industry was in the East. And so those soils, it was hot, nights were hot, soils were sandy, salty, and so on and so forth. I could see they were up against that. And then, of course, Argentina had been an isolationist country for over 40 years. And so they had very antiquated equipment, stuff you wouldn't even find in a French museum. You know, really ancient stuff, all broken down. At any rate, those are just winery problems. That's just cash or being able to get equipment. For me, what was important was, could we grow high quality grapes? And there is where I thought they already excelled in terms of terroir and possibly even in climate to Chile. So that's what captured my interest. And I said, the rest of this is solvable. We can bring equipment, we can train people. Sure, we had every, the wines were oxidized, they were cooked, they were beat up. But then on the other hand, they had a mentality of ancient or old world planting. I mean, more like you would expect in Europe. Chile had really followed more of the US. Central Valley, California model with wide spacings and very rich soils, so the vines were highly bigger. So that was not the case in Mendoza. They were tight, high density plantings. So I thought, well, we don't have to start from scratch. We just need to improve the viticulture and the farming. And their irrigation, their system of irrigation, the flood irrigation is much different than you might have in California. Did you find that that was a challenge for you, or did you see that as a blessing, as available water? Well, something new, I can assure you. I mean, the flood or furrow irrigation system through their canal system provided them with too much water. And so, it was a definite challenge. And then the way they were growing the grapes in those days was as low to the ground as possible. So sometimes when they irrigated, they would actually wet the fruit. Because the tips of the clusters were sitting on the soil. And they wanted their fruit as low to the ground as possible because of the hailstorms that that region gets, one of the third worst regions of the world, agricultural region. So yeah, so those were all things we had to change. As much as I liked the traditional system, it's fascinating to see that you could irrigate with that much water. It's extremely wasteful. Yeah. And it's very difficult to meter water and manage it when you're irrigating in that fashion. So it's nice romantically. Yeah, for sure. But not good for high quality wine in the end. If you're not very careful, and they only give you the water that the water is on schedule. It's not like the water runs by your place every day. So they felt compelled that once if the water is there, we have to take it and irrigate. And they were, you know, would maybe in some cases be better. They just missed an irrigation. Sure. So do you feel that they've really grown up now? Yeah, overall, I'd say in a dramatic way. It has been one of the most exciting countries for wine, in my opinion. The investment, the openness, the willingness to learn and to improve has really been, it's one of the most refreshing, I'm speaking of Argentina. More so than any other country I've ever worked in. You know, of course, France, being very traditional, is more open today than they used to be because they were the reference point. And so I think they were a bit arrogant and thought they had the knowledge that everybody else was trying to get. And then in other areas, very tribal. And so it was kind of like, well, it's our way or no other way. And passed on from one generation to the next without questioning. California kind of broke all that approach. And I think California's approach has kind of gone worldwide, which I think just shows that people want to know why things work and how they work. Even against tradition, against religions, against governments, the California approach has succeeded worldwide. And you even see that today in Burgundy. I mean, young Burgundians today, as you know, they think more like, well, the way we think in California. Exactly. Yeah. They want to know. They're exploring things. They're experimenting and testing and asking questions. And you must like to experiment quite a bit. Do you ever get time to just sort of tinker in the winery and... I think that's always essential. Yeah. I mean, today, with running companies and so on, I don't want to get too busy doing that. So I have other people help me with that aspect of it. And because I think I never want to give up my true passion, which is to, that's all. I mean, of course, I'm also like control. And so I like to tinker on something that I own, where we can tinker without having it be a grower and putting the grower at risk, for example. But from my point of view, grapes are what really makes wine. And so I find that there's too much talk about this type of tank or that type of yeast or filtration enzymes and all that kind of thing. And when you grow high quality fruit, most of that stuff disappears into the woodwork, into the background. Because high quality fruit doesn't really require manipulation. And to grow high quality fruit is very difficult to do. However, choosing the best sites and matching them up and just setting them up properly makes them easier to farm. And things work out. So it's a lot more work. But finally, in the end, it's a lot less work. Their reward is much higher. Much higher. Yeah. So, coming from and spending a lot of time in California between Napa and Sonoma, last question here, do you find cultural differences between those two regions, even though they're right next to each other? A difference between the two, I suppose, they're not radically different, but, you know, Napa has always been more commercial. Sort of, even in Napa, recognized as the Disney of... Yes. And it's a place, there's a lot of money there. So, that's for better or for worse. And Sonoma is growing up. I think Napa is more serious from a business point of view. Napa has grown tremendously as well in that sense. So, I like a number of the developments. Sonoma isn't as much of a stepchild or back, I don't know, a Cinderella, if you will. But I think it's much more sophisticated than it used to be. Yes. Better restaurants, the whole scene has evolved, so it's not the frumpy Sonoma that it used to be. Yeah. But still not like Napa light. It still has its own characteristic and its own sort of individuality. Sonoma is a place as a far, and that's probably why it's a little more challenging, it's a far more diverse and interesting place than Napa. I've lived in both. Sonoma is a multi-faceted, very interesting place. It takes longer to get to, it's much more like Burgundy would be, I suppose, if you were to use that model, although Burgundy is a tiny place. And it's harder to get to know. But the rewards are there for those that explore it. So it's more nuanced? It's more nuanced, definitely. Less showy, and probably a little more authentic. I tend to like that. When I'm in Sonoma, I feel very calm, relaxed, easy. It's sort of a feeling that I don't get much when I'm in Napa. I like both places a lot. But I choose to live in Sonoma for the reason that it just feels more homey. If you will, more sincere. Well, thank you for sitting in for this interview for Barrel To Bottle. We really appreciate you joining us at Binny's today. I hope you have a great seminar. Great to be here. Thank you. No, thank you. So there you have it, folks. That was my interview with Paul Hobbs. Not so many times in my life I get to interview such an important and charismatic guy. I hope that you enjoyed it. I know that I sure did. It was a special experience for somebody like me. Compared to him, my career is just a blink. Sure. Somebody on the other side of the learning curve for all that is wanted. What a resource. Yeah. A world that... I'm going to keep working. Maybe someday I'll get his email address and I'll get that direct line. I don't think that's coming anytime soon. Sound amazing. I mean, there's a lot to take away from that. From somebody with that much experience, can learn so much just by one conversation and that's incredible. Thank you. Well, I forgot to tell you that during the seminar, so when people come and they do continuing education, I oftentimes, especially to the very famous guys like Paul Hobbs, I did it to Todd Mastero. He's the wine maker, Dominus. Did it to David Guffey over at Hess. I got this from actually a brand manager from Ruinar. So I give these guys and girls three words and they have to say them during the course. Some of them do very well and some don't. David Guffey was like the man forever until Paul Hobbs just took the limelight. He stole the award from David Guffey and he is now the number one man for the three words contest for continuing education of famous wine makers and speakers and he slayed it. It was awesome. His words were the flash, the comic character, manstitude. I just googled the Tribb's vocabulary word of the day and that's what he got and I didn't even know what it meant until I read it and he didn't know and then I gave him frozen because he's in the Midwest during the winter and he used all three words. So Paul Hobbs, if you're listening, you are the king of the three word contest so far. Wait, do I have to use three words? Are you Paul Hobbs? No, but I may have to leave but I can't leave without a Q&A. Okay, Q&A you guys. So if you want to win a $20 gift card to Binny's Beverage Depot, write us at Binny's Bev on Twitter. If we pick yours, you will win. So this week we've got actually I've got this week's Binny's Beverage Depot Q&A. Did they write you personally or? No, no, no, but the great Hillary sent it to me. This is from at just Taco Cat. I don't know what that means, but here's the question. I've tried a Riesling in the past and it's super sweet. Are there other styles of Riesling that aren't quite so sweet? Oh, man. Just Taco Cat. Of course there are. So basically if you want dry, the easiest way to do that is to look for a German Riesling that has the words Trocken on it. Trocken means dry. T-R-O-C-K-E-N. Trocken. Trocken means dry, man. So if you want to dry Riesling, go look for that word on the label. It's a relatively new labeling law that they can include that. So that's really the way to go. You could skirt Germany altogether. They've got a bit of a confusing labeling scheme. No joke. I get it. Yeah. So I'm not saying give up, but if you want to make it easy on yourself, you could just walk on over across the river to Alsace in France, where the Rieslings are most definitely dry. So you can get the same bottle, the same kind of climate, the same, almost the same style of a dry Riesling. You're not going to have any sugar on the Trocken side. If you want the dry, easiest way, go to Alsace. If not, look for Trocken on the label. Those are two easy fixes to get rid of the sweet problem in your life. The takeaway for tonight is to keep on Trocken. When it comes to Riesling. Now that we've got to answer that question, I think we should probably put a bow on this episode. From all of us at Binny's Beverage Depot, I hope you guys enjoyed this week's podcast. Thanks for listening. Once again, thanks to Paul Hobbs. Jeff, it's always a pleasure. Absolutely. And if I want to learn more about work and check in on these events where you host someone like a Paul Hobbs, where should I go? Yeah, take a look at binnys.com/events for everything we hold as far as tastings, seminars and engravings, and you'll see everything there. So thanks for listening and keep on Trocken. Well, thank you. Interviewing is never really my strong suit, so I appreciate it. Oh, I think you're too hard on yourself. Oh, well, that is definitely true. All right, so your words are, your first is to work in the flash, like the comic character, the flash. Oh, go, I'll replace your drink it. No, I haven't, I got mine up here. My words for the seminar. Yep, yep, yep. So you're working in the flash somehow. The flash? Yeah. Your second word is manstitude. Manstitude is like the state of being gentle or almost meekness, manstitude. Manstitude. Yep. That was on the Trib's Word of the Day. So I just was like, how do you spell it? M-A-N. Oh, here it is. M-A-N-S-U-E-T-U-D-E, manstitude. Manstitude. And then frozen since you're way up here and it's cold. You got frozen. So you can use that in terms of... Flash, manstitude, and frozen. Yep. The flash. The manstitude again. It's like a meekness or the state of being gentle. So manstitude waves of the ocean just kind of gently washing over you. I'm going to get a look when I say that. You are. You might. Who knows what's going to happen when you compare something to the flash though. You might really get more looks at it. You think so? I don't know. So they're used to this kind of thing, I suppose. Do they know there's a three word thing? Nobody ever knows. Oh, and the speaker never says? The speaker never says. You can at the end, but no one's ever said.