Welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm your host, Pat Brophy, here always with Kristin Ellis. Kristin, how are you doing? I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for joining us today. We got Roger in the house. What's up, Rog? Not much. I'm glad to be here. We're glad to have you here, Roger, and also Greg Versch. Hey. And a special wine buyer guest, the esteemed Bill Newton. Hey, Kristin, what are we going to talk about today? We're going to talk about California Cabernet for the Holidays, your holiday buying guide, and really just kind of a Cali Cab in general. All right, cool. Holiday stuff. That's right. Well, you know, it's kind of, it's the second most purchased grape variety in the United States. It's kind of what, you know, the California popularity was built on after the 70s, and it's kind of what introduces everybody to wine is Cali Cab, man. I'd like to learn a little more about kind of these special occasion, cool, interesting, classic California Cabernets. Yeah, we've got a few different examples for our listeners today, and just going to talk about kind of little bits and bobs about the history. Like I said, this isn't kind of a 101, kind of give us some basic numbers on production in California. And we'll talk about Sonoma, really kind of staying in the North Coast with Sonoma and Napa Valley expressions. Napa, of course, being the most iconic AVA or American viticultural area in the United States. It was the second AVA created in the country in 1981, I believe, and is only responsible for actually about 4% of total production in California wine, but gets all the press and all the notoriety. So it's really, really important and really kind of an iconic area for us. We're going to focus there for sure at the end of the cast. Cool. So what are we starting with? Well, do you know where Cabernet comes from? The birthplace? France. Cool. Do you know even the region within France? Bordeaux. Good job. And I'll give you a bottle of Cabernet if you can tell me the parent plants of Cabernet Sauvignon. Cabernet Franc and Syrah. So Cabernet Sauvignon, right? You've got Cabernet Franc. Cabernet Franc. Now take that Sauvignon. Sauvignon Blanc? Boom. Good job. Two Bordeaux varieties. So like 400 years ago, some genius crossed this thing and that new seedling that was planted was Cabernet Sauvignon. So crossing is a variety that has two parent plants of the same species and then that seed that grows up is Cabernet. But it's good to know that every single iteration or clone of Cabernet that happened after that is propagated by cuttings. So you can't just throw seeds in the ground and get Cabernet. It's always got to be cut off of a parent plant. So all those acres of Cabernet in California all come from some of the same parent plants and clones from around the world. So I really want to talk about Sonoma today because I feel like we're also Napa, Napa, Napa and Sonoma is the ****, right? You want to talk about Napa too, though, right? I know, but I want to talk about Sonoma. Sonoma is more beautiful and a more interesting place to visit. And Clive would argue. Thank you, but. It's less stressed out there for sure. You cross over the mountain range and it's totally chill. You know, Napa is kind of becoming a bit, a bit, it's super touristy, you know, and so it's kind of the Disneyland of wine region. It's touristy, it's built up. Sonoma is on a whole a cooler climate. It's got higher diurnal shifts, which means that the Cabernet can be a little bit lighter on its feet, higher in refreshing acidity, have a little bit more finesse, a little bit more structure to them. And on a whole, they're price lower. So what's our first wine, Kristin? Gundlach Bundschu. Is it Gundlach Bundschu? I can never say it correctly. Gundlach Bundschu. Why this wine is so iconic is in Sonoma in 1858, Jacob Gundlach bought 400 acres and planted it to not just Cabernet, but a few other varieties. And then some years later, his counterpart came in, Mr. Bundschu and actually married Mr. Gundlach's first born daughter. So that kind of solidified the families. And they've kind of run amucks ever since. So the same old story, Phylloxera, 1870s, things got devastated, prohibition, a couple of World Wars. And so in the 70s, this brand was revived. And in 1973, they released their first three commercial wines in the modern age. And they've been just icons of Sonoma wine for a long, long time. And they produce consistently kick-ass bottles of Cabernet. And this rocks out about $44.99 on the shelf. When you see Cabernet on the label, just know that a lot of the time, the wines are still blends. When you say you like Cabernet, oftentimes what you're saying without knowing it is you like Cabernet-dominated blends. So this one is 87% Cabernet Sauvignon, 8% Petite Verdeux, 3% Merlot, 1% Cab Franc, and 1% Malbec. 18 months aged, 100% French oak, and 45% new. It's surprisingly serious wine. For $45, I think it's absolutely fantastic. Yeah. Super deeply colored, and it's not too oaky, right? But why I like wines from Sonoma is the structure. It's got acidity and it's got good grippy tannins. So if you talk about ageability, you can lay this wine down for three, five, seven years and it's still going to be stellar. I was going to say that actually, this is going to be a long-lived wine for sure. Yeah. The fruit's not in control right up front. It's like black olive and then a lot of savory qualities. There's some spiciness to this for sure. Is that alcohol or oak or oak? Well, what kind of spice? Pepper spice, baking spice? More pepper spice. Yeah. That comes from the Petite Verdeaux. There's quite a bit of Petite Verdeaux in this blend, a lot more than usual. You'll see things like maybe one, two, three percent smatterings around both Bordeaux and California. This has eight percent and so that's really, it's known to add the spice to the blend. So I would attribute it to that. It's gamey. It's super complex. We've got fruit, we've got earth, we've got game, we've got spice. And it's worth noting that wines from California do charge a premium, you know, especially when you get up into this quality. Coming out of the North Coast, really, 50 bucks is kind of where we're sitting to pay to play, especially for good quality for the holidays. It just is what it is. And this one just under 50, I think, over delivers for the price. And it's definitely not a cookie cutter style either. This is pretty good. And I think the Petite Bordeaux gives it a little bit of its individuality, actually. Would you say this would be a good one to bring for something around the holidays for somebody who knows their wine? Is this kind of more like a wine geek's cabernet? Sure. Just because of the historical aspects of this wine. Just basically how important this producer is to the history of California wine. If people know California wine, then they know these names. A lot of these wines are going to be tasting today. And this one, for sure, you want to decant these a little bit because a little bit of time in a decanter, it's really going to open up. These are really young. That's the thing at Binny's, we don't really sell a whole lot of old wine. So the two spectrums where we decant is super young and super old. So to give it an hour in a decanter is a great head start. You'll really see how the wine opens up. Very cool. That was an excellent wine. What's next? While we're waiting for Kristin to pour this wine, Rodney Strong is a very famous winery. Probably a lot of people out there listening right now have had Rodney Strong wines. They make them in a huge variety of price ranges. They make some really, really good value wines as well as some good premium wines. So we're in the heart of Sonoma County in the Alexander Valley AVA. This is Rodney Strong's Alexander's Crown. What's the vintage on this, Roger? 2013? 14? 14. Thank you. Why this vineyard is so iconic? It's one of the first single vineyard wines to be released from Sonoma County, from Alexander Valley AVA in 1974. So we're looking at a pure Cabernet Sauvignon. No other varietals. This is a pure single vineyard Cabernet. Wow. So right off the bat, we've not decanted it. We haven't given it a chance to really open up. How do you gentlemen feel about this wine? A little bit of sulfur. Yeah, a little bit. It'll blow off. I think it's softer and a bit fruitier than the last one. Yeah, the nose is definitely fruitier. The nose has like a raspberry note to it that's pretty cool. This is, I think, more of what you'd come to expect from a California Cabernet. It doesn't make it better or worse, but it's definitely more like it's siblings than the last one we tried. For sure. More chocolate. It's yet deeper, heavy hitting, and that chocolatey, baked, blackberry kind of smell. Where the first wine is more of a, I would say, an old world style in the new world, this is definitely very much a California wine. Did you say the acidity is higher on this? That's kind of how it seems to me, lemoniness to it. And tannins. More of a lift and a frame. Well, Cabernet is very high in acid, so it's totally right on that you're feeling that. So where the first one was a Bordeaux blend, that accounts for some of that lower acidity, but also some of that complexity in spice. Once again, here we've got pure Cabernet. So if you want to go out and say, hey, I like cabs, then really you got to do your due diligence to find the pure varietal 100% cabs. This is a really, really good example. Yeah, I got to tell you, I think this is a crowd pleaser. I think if you brought this to a party, you'd make some friends. I agree with Bill. I mean, this is one, I think anybody who is, whether they're seasoned cab vet, or someone who just knows that they like fruity, California style Cabernet, you're going to try this one and you're going to love it. This is awesome. How long before some of the tannin structure seems pretty aggressive still on this? What would a year or two do to that? What kind of time frame are we talking about? I think a year, you're probably not going to notice too much of a change in the tannin structure, but after two or three, you'll definitely get some softening for sure. It's definitely drinking great now. If you air it out and if you would decant this wine, you would notice it would definitely soften, but this really needs food. This can stand up next to some of our heavier dishes we serve in the holidays, especially if it's going to be things like steak and pork and whatnot, and that chewy protein is really going to soften out those tannins, and it really will actually I think in like four years, this wine is going to absolutely be singing, and that's why you've always got to buy two bottles of a wine, not just one. You've got to have one to drink today, and then you've got to have one to put away. I'm happy you guys like this wine. I tasted this for the first time some years ago, and I was just in love with it, so I was really happy to show it today, so thanks for that. They have another one too. They've got three in the Single Vineyard Series. They're pretty good. They're very good, because normally Rodney Strong's associated with kind of value wine, you know, 7, 10, whatever. So you don't really think of this producer in the top end, and what they do, they do awesomely. Would you say that people's palates develop an affinity for tannin that's this aggressive? Is it kind of like with hops and beer, or is it just that I'm not used to it? Yes, absolutely. Tannin, hoppiness in beer, spicy food, if you've got it in you, that you like it a little bit, you're going to end up liking it a lot, and if you don't, you're going to get accustomed to it. Agree? Disagree? Agree. I wouldn't have said that this is more tannic than the first wine. Am I wrong in that? I don't think it is. Okay. I think this is a little bit smoother and rounder and richer. They tend to drink beer in spirits. They don't drink a lot of wine, so I was curious if that's something that since the rest of you have much more experience drinking wine, that it's something that you acclimate your palate to, or if it's just a personal preference thing. It definitely takes time. Think about what you drank when you were a kid. I mean, a kid like 21. You know what I mean? We all drank the fruity stuff. We still liked the sweet. That's where the taste was. Roger started drinking Scotch ales when he was like seven. Yeah. Cannon's great, man. It's great. So it's a bittersweet because it can be bitter. It can have a bitter effect and a bitter finish, and so that takes time. I could see this being really nice with food, even for me, but it just on its own, it's like too much for me right now. A little too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little bit earlier, early in the evening too. So Sonoma, if you don't know, now you know. I mean, really, it's kind of the unsung hero, I think, of Cabernet production. And you can get some world-class, almost iconic, Cabernet from Sonoma at a fraction of the price. Well, not only is it showing up to the party with a good host or hostess gift or a bottle, you're going to open for a sweet dinner during the holidays. It's also about, I mean, you can look cool by talking these wines. Like, did you know Sonoma this, Sonoma that, First Vineyard this? Like, do a little bit of research into the producer's website and come loaded with some fun nuggets of information to talk about. I think people really like that at the holidays when they're learning about the wines that they're drinking. Here we go on with some fun facts about California Cabernet, folks. California's most widely planted black grape with 90,782 acres in 2016. The majority is planted in Napa, San Luis Obispo, Sonoma, Lodi, and of course, San Joaquin County. California crushed 566,574 tons of Cabernet Sauvignon in 2016, up from 94,177 tons in 1990. So they've killed it. Okay, so we're gonna move to the place that everybody really wants us to talk about, and that's the iconic Napa Valley. Once again, the second American viticultural area created in 1981. We're gonna talk about Ulysees, Napa Valley wine from 2012. The story of this wine, really quickly, this comes from an iconic producer in Napa Valley called Dominus. Dominus, you guys, if you're looking for a fantastic gift of Napa Valley Cabernet, that's really probably at the top of my list. I love Dominus. Everybody deserves to drink one bottle of Dominus in their life. It's worth it. It is. You can drink it young, drink it old, they last forever. So they came up with this new project. This is, I believe, the second release of Ulysees. So it's from the Dominus company. Ulysees is right in the middle, mid-tier, 160. I don't know that they have a reserve. I can't speak to that. But then Dominus comes out on release about 215, 230, depending on the vintage. I think the most recent we have on the shelf is the 15. I want to say it's about $220. In the grand scheme of top-end Cabernet offerings from around the world, that's really not that much in the high-end top-end tier. Not saying that I can afford it. It's on a Tuesday night wine. It's very special, like a once-in-a-lifetime kind of thing for a lot of people. It's a holiday Cabernet. But I mean, if you are looking for that raise, you want to impress the boss, you're trying to... Or you just got the raise. Or you just got the raise. You did impress the boss. More importantly, exactly, if you've done it, like you really come in and grab a bottle of Dominus. So anyway, this is what I thought would be a really interesting bottle to pour. So 160 bucks, Ulysees Cabernet. This smells phenomenal. They know what they're doing over there. That's like the complexity that you're looking for out of Napa Cabernet. And $160 actually is really a sweet spot for a price point. So one of the things about this wine, it does share something with Dominus in that it's just so polished. And that's like the trademark of Dominus. And it's not at the expense of complexity, but it's always just polished and classy. That's just the kind of wine they make. I mean, this is really a wine that if I received this as a gift, I would lay this down for a few years, at five, seven, ten at the least. I think it's drinking good right now. But yeah, I think it's really good right now. Of course it is, but it's just going to get better. That finish can smooth out too, for sure. It's a little rough. A little. Not in a bad way, but I'm just saying. I say this, I throw this word out there too much, I know, but it's got finesse. Oh, that's what I was looking for. It has finesse. It's light on its feet. All their wines do. You don't get any of that chocolatey, heavy-handed, no alcohol burns through. It's just... I mean, those things are all in there, but they're woven in. Exactly. And that's why I love them. And I haven't figured out how to express this yet in words, and it would be important as a podcast host to do so, but wine that really travels on the palate, you know, like it's got, it tastes one way in the beginning, and then it kind of like, you know, will branch out, spread out in the mid palate, come back together again, and do it again, like it just sort of tells a story and kind of a winding road. I like it. When you're buying some of these higher end ones, how much of the price and the prestige of it is the wine making process versus the grapes themselves? Good wines made in the vineyard. I mean, that's really where they're paying the most attention to make sure that they've got good, healthy grapes, but are also picked at the proper time for this style of wine. You know, they let it hang a little bit longer. That fruit spectrum is going to change from the perfectly ripe black fruit to more of that stewed or cooked or baked fruit, right, or raisinated quality as you can get often. You're going to lose that refreshing acidity. You're going to get too high alcohol. Like this, the balance of what they do in the vineyard to make sure that these grapes get not only perfect sugar ripeness, but also phenolic ripeness to produce a wine of this caliber is amazing. This is an unadulterated perfection, you know. It's just, it's lovely. Yeah, and also, a lot depends on where the vineyard is too. With all due respect, you're not going to find a wine like this from Central Coast. You know, it's just not going to happen. Yeah. So, location, clones, I mean, think about their lineage, right? That goes all the way to Bordeaux, so they have access to some of the best top clones in the world. And this is kind of what's going into their wines. So, good for them. It's sparing no expense wine making. At the same time, they have a s***load of money. When you have a ton of money, you can make really good wine. You can buy a lot of wood? Yeah. So, Pat, if I were to say one name with the most iconic name in Napa Valley Cabernet production, what would you say? It's probably that Mondavi guy, right? Yes, it's that Mondavi guy. So here we have the Robert Mondavi Reserve. I did not know that Robert Mondavi wines got this high end. I didn't know that about Beringer wines either, apparently. Oh, they do, and they're fantastic. These big guys, they really don't get the props that they deserve. In a steakhouse in the 1980s, that's what was available, the Beringer Reserve and the Mondavi Reserve and a couple others. And these days, the cult stuff has kind of stolen the spotlight, but these are incredible wines. And they have access to some of the best vineyards in California. I mean, don't kid yourself, these are companies that have big pockets. And again, we were just talking about this. It's all about the vineyard and where it is, and they have good vineyards. So, this comes from the world-renowned Tocallan Vineyard, which is, I mean, anyone who's in the know about Napa Cabernet knows this producer, but then this vineyard. This is like in the heart of Napa, in Oakville. Now, would they own this vineyard, or can other producers get grapes from this vineyard? They are not the only person who sources from this vineyard. They have two choices. They don't own it outright. There are other people that own plots in there. I think that they're a majority owner, but they also sell some of the grapes to other producers who then put Tocolon on their labels as well. They're a grower and producer from that vineyard. So you can also count on this vineyard to be used for Opus I. Opus I is probably one of the most iconic Napa Valley Cabernets that's produced year after year. That's Mondavi tied up with Rothschild. Yeah, so Baron Philippe Rothschild hung out with Robert Mondavi, and they had their first, I want to say, their first sale vintage of Opus I in the early 1980s, 83, but they began to work on it in the late 70s. And there was a young winemaker who was actually working underneath Mondavi and his team, and that was Paul Hobbs for these first vintages of Opus I. So what house is Opus then? Is it... Opus I is its own winery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's the Mondavis. So it's like Robert Mondavi split from his family that owned Charles Krug, and he started his own Mondavi winery. You know, when we're talking about tons, you know, tons per acre or price of a ton of Napa Prime, Napa Valley Cabernet, if you got a ton of grapes from this vineyard, you could pay anywhere between $7,000 and $8,000, if not more. I think actually that's kind of an average price is about $7,000 per ton, which is crazy town, right? I mean, up in Oregon, I think that they can charge, you know, for Top Pino, like $3,500, $3,000 for Top, Top, Top Pino. So, it's super expensive, just to pay to play to make a wine in Oakville is just crazy. Actually, it drives that cost way up. And that's a really good point. We were talking earlier about price and it's like, just buying the land, I mean, land in Napa is insane. Right. It takes them forever to recoup the price of that. Exactly. You know. Now, this Mondavi Reserve is, I think, a steal for the quality. Opus, I think we just released the most recent vintage rate around $320, and this is 115. And just kind of chills at 115 year after year. So, you're getting Mondavi know-how. You're getting grapes that are sourced from the same vineyard that goes in to make Opus One for a third of the price. And this stuff ages like a champ, too. Yeah. And I like these wines a little bit better. I feel a bit livelier and more energetic when I drink a wine. That's Cabernet. Listen, Cabernet is a heavy-handed wine in itself intrinsically, but I like them when they're a little bit lighter style. They're lighter on the alcohol. They're 13 and a half, 14, 14%, whatever. I really, really enjoy that. So, Roger, to your point, I love this wine. The Opus is just way, it's heavier. It's more viscous. It's just like there's no way you could drink that in a hot day. This is sleek wine. This is polished wine. That's the word. That's a good word. I've been searching for that. It's sleek and polished. I mean, you can kind of just smell the money that went into this wine, but it's streamlined. This is like your high-octane sports car. This is what that is. Kristen, you did a good job picking these wines. These are all really good. I think anybody that would receive any of these, going from $45 all the way to $160, I'd be happy with any of these wines. Typical Cali Cab descriptors. Go for it. Black olive, plum, a little bit of tobacco, blackberry, a little bit of chocolate, but it's all melded into this seamless experience. And you're talking about the journey across the palate. This is that. It starts off primal, and as it stretches out, it gets more herbal and savory. And then towards the end, the lingering finish and the herbal tannin and the herbal structure, then it just stretches everything out into the background. And the people that don't like the big, overly ripe chocolate milk wines, this isn't it? No, this is class. No, not a class. This drinks how I would imagine some of the other wines we tried today would after some time. So I don't know if that makes sense. Like it feels more rounded and softer. So 2014 is a pretty good year, huh? 2014, yeah. I mean, we don't have a whole lot of bad years. I mean, it could be seen as a little bit lesser in terms of ripeness and things, you know, but I think it's a very classic year. And the wines are kind of like this, just kind of sleek and polished and have a little bit more finesse. They're not so big and heavy handed. That brings us to the Q&A portion of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Write your question to comments at binnys.com or hit us up on social on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram at Binny's Bev for your chance at a $20 Binny's gift card. This week's question comes from Larry Gardens out in St. Charles. Larry asks, I have a lot of friends who drink Malbec and suggest it as an alternative to Cabernet. What do you guys think? Bill, do you agree with that? Well, I have some opinions about Malbec. Malbec is a wonderful blending grape. They use it in Bordeaux to blend with Cabernet and Merlot. It isn't my favorite standalone grape, especially on the lower end. There's some very nice Malbecs that are higher end, that have some character, but Malbecs can tend to be one-dimensional. It doesn't mean that there aren't many wonderful Malbecs from Argentina, but it probably wouldn't be my first choice. Hold on a second, Bill. You buy South American wine, don't you? Yes. So it sounds like you're not that big of a fan of Malbec. Actually, one thing that people don't always understand is that Argentina makes exceptional Cabernet. exceptional Cabernet. You will often find that the Cabernet from the same producer that makes a Malbec, the Cabernet is far superior. So I would encourage everybody to go into their neighborhood Binny's and buy a bottle of Argentine Cabernet and just compare it to your favorite Malbec and see what you like better. So I think, Larry Gardin, something that you should know about Malbec is how important it was in building the Western wine world that we know today. For example, Chateau Lafitte in the Medieval times was Malbec. So when the Brits were buying all the Claret in the 12th, 13th, 14th century, Malbec was the grape of choice. But it's super sensitive to two things, one, cold temperatures and two, a vine malady called calore. So when we had a few different instances of deep freezing, other vine maladies, like I said, rots and things, and that forced Malbec to kind of not thrive in its birthplace, which is Bordeaux. So it was transplanted during phylloxera in the 1870s all the way to Argentina. It almost, it found its actual true expression in Argentina. It does super well there, way better than any, I think, almost any Bordeaux laser could really do. And so they're just coming into their own in the modern day with what they're able to do in terms of, okay, I mean, when did Argentina even join the modern, the world economy, it was like 84. So, I mean, they didn't get any subsidies, they didn't get any trade, any global trade or anything like that until we were kids. And they're just jumping into the wine scene. And I think we're just coming into the time now where they're learning how to make Malbec that's a bit more expressive. And Bill is absolutely right, a lot of the iterations that we receive are two dimensional, but they're getting better and better and better every vintage. And when we say top end, it's hard. I mean, a lot of people will pay 160 bucks for a top end Cabernet. So the thing is, you can get a good Malbec for 25, 30 bucks. The problem is, well, it's a problem for the people in Argentina, is that people don't really... People come into the store when they're looking for South America wine, they're looking for value wine. That's just the way it is right now. If you're looking for a value wine out of South America, it's not a bad idea, but try a Cabernet. But I just want to give a little bit more as to why Malbec is where it is and where it is in its evolutionary journey. I think it's just going to get better. Thanks for your question. I'm Malbec. You've earned yourself a $20 Binny's gift card. And if you're listening, send us questions, hit us up on social media of your choice, at Binny's Bev Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tinder, Grindr. We love questions. We always swipe right. For your chance to win a $20 Binny's gift card. Folks, thanks for listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Thanks to Bill Newton for sticking through a Cabernet podcast with us. It was a pleasure, Greg. We'll see you in a week. I'm Greg. I'm Kristen. I'm Pat. And I'm Roger. And I'm Bill. Keep tasting. Talk toward Pat. Hey, Pat. That was actually... When you do that cheek thing, that marounds out your voice better. Ah, okay. Still Smokey Baby. My voice, I sound like a baby that smokes cigarettes. That's what we call a Smokey Baby. That's fantastic. Nobody calls you that. That's a made up nickname. Oh man, now I'm only gonna think of that.