Hey, thanks for listening to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Kristen Ellis isn't just a podcast host. She's also in charge of wine education. Whether that means educating Binny's staff or educating customers like you at our continuing education events. These events feature industry luminaries such as wine makers, brewers, distillers, warehouse managers. The list goes on and on. Be sure to check it out on our website, binnys.com/events. Sometimes Kristen will corner the VIP at one of these events for an interview for the Barrel to Bottle podcast. At a recent event, Kristen sat down with wine maker Alberto Bianchi of Newton Vineyards to ask him a few questions. That interview is coming up next and stick around for a customer Q&A after the interview. Here's Kristen. So, winemaking, that's your gig. You love it. Yes. Yeah, and you're from Milan. Yes, I'm originally from Milan. And then you did your master's work in Turin. Yes, correct. So why cabernet, why Bordeaux varieties now versus working with Nebbiolo or Sangiovese or charnet? Yeah, in the past, so I started to work in Italy where I had the possibility to work with Nebbiolo, with Sangiovese, and with some other varieties from the South. But then I joined the Estate and Wines group at the end of 2012 through a project that basically sent me to Argentina for one year where I worked with Malbec and cabernet, and then to New Zealand, at Cloudy Bay, obviously Sauvignon, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay. I also worked for Cape Mentale in Australia. All LVMH brands. So you kind of, how did that work? Did you kind of get in with LVMH, and then they kind of sent you on the world tour? Okay. Yeah. And that was 2012? Well, I worked for Cape Mentale in 2011 in Australia, and then at the end of 2012, I started with this project. It was called Early Career Wine Maker. Okay. So already the idea was three people will spend three years, one year at each winery. And so that's the turn that they did. And I went through Newton, in fact. So at the end of the program, I wouldn't say they really asked me where you wanted to go, but yes, the idea was that. And I really pushed through to go back to Newton. Now, the variety is just a media that we have to express what we want to say to the wines. So I always enjoy to work with cabernet, but there are many varieties that would be great to work with. The reason I wanted to go back to Newton is the potential that they saw there in terms of obviously vineyard and cellar. So from 2014, I think we put a lot of work in our wines, and we're driving a style that probably is a bit different than the past, probably a bit more modern, but also that we enjoy better. In regards to Newton, you mean stylistically you've changed? Yeah. So when did that change take place? With you, do you think, or? Yeah, in 2014, Newton theme has been, let's say, replaced quite heavily. So we got a new estate director, new wine maker, new person in the vineyard and so on. So it was really the right moment. Also, we got a new, at the time, CEO for estate and wines. So it was really set up to do that jump. And yes, in 2014, which was our first vintage there, we started to change the style of the wines. Okay. With Chardonnay, but also with rates. So what did that mean as far as your regimen changing? As you may know, the unfiltered Chardonnay that made, in fact, Newton very famous in the last years, had been really a wine very ripe and concentrated, where the acidity sometime was below what we think a fresh, nice white wine should be. So we started to manage the vineyard differently. We are, at the moment, the leafing way less than what has been done on the Chardonnay. Actually, on the afternoon side, for instance, we don't even the leaf at all. And I'm talking about carneros mainly, which is the first source of fruit for us. So changing the vineyards and also in the wine making, we shorten the aging. So we just do 12 months in Barrel, and we peak way before in terms of timing. We have been picking Chardonnay now at the end of August, beginning of September, I believe, five years ago was probably at the end of September. So we are talking about big differences in picking time. What are we talking about as far as degrees, bricks? Well now, in Napa, you have to be very careful in picking by bricks, because sometime bricks don't mean anything. But what we have in our mind as a target is between 22 and a half and 23 and a half, something like that. Now? Now. And then? Well, then I was not there. I don't know. Probably a lot more. And then in terms of the cabernet, if you're making more of a... cabernet, the idea is similar. I tend to care less about the bricks. Red grapes needs to be ripe to make wines that have an interest, I think. So we obviously work with three main vineyards. We start with Spring Mountain, which is the original Peter Newton vineyard where he planted. Then we go through Yarnville, which is more valley floor, and then we have Montvider. Now, we saw that with the time, Yarnville is always the first to be picked because slightly warmer area, it's down on the floors, valley floor, so we don't have as big a thermic excursion through night and day. So obviously the sugar ripes faster. And then usually we start with Spring Mountain. Montvider is always one to two weeks after those two. Montvider, really we have no problems in ripeness, and in sugar, we can really pick it whenever we feel it's the perfect moment. And usually we're talking about mid-October when we pick Montvider. Is it good to be able to pick Montvider last, but also kind of have the liberty to pick when you want, because in terms of how vertiginous and steep and difficult it is to harvest Montvider, but also because of labor shortages, does it give you a little bit more freedom? Is it easier? It's great, you know, for us, and we achieved that in 2017, we didn't in 2016, but we start with Chardonnay. I love to finish Chardonnay and start with the reds. Sometimes we cross the two. The process is very different. So if we can do that, it's great. And then yes, it's good to have a constant flow of fruit, which is never too much. Obviously that would be the ideal world, but that's what we try to do. And also that helps us to have a winery that it's not completely full all the time in terms of fermentation things, and it gives us the opportunity to handle all the fermentation better. Also because we ferment very small blocks. You know, we tend to have many things. If you imagine the amount of work, really, it's not related on the quantity, it's related on the batches that you really do, because we do three tons fermenter, maybe four some time. And so we end up having 50 tank fermenting or 60 tank fermenting, and having all those at the same time, it takes us a lot of time to work with that. Well, as far as winemaking staff for Newton, there's yourself, you have an assistant, and then how many different people, you know, between the seller workers and then interns, how many do you have in the winery for one harvest, generally? So we have, that's me and Andrew Olvey, which is since a month, we promoted him to associate winemaker, and then we have four permanent people in the seller, with a lot of experience at Newton, which is great to have in Napa Valley, and then we hire six internationals for the vintage. Really, the vintage obviously is the time where the peak of the work. Usually, we tend to hire Europeans, South America, Australians, really from anywhere. Five of them work in the seller, and one helps us with the lab. We need help there, doing vintage, obviously, because we run lots of analysis. So even with so many hands, at one time, fermenting and handling all those separate plots, it's still a ton of work. Oh, it's a lot of work. So you're sleeping like four hours a day, if you're lucky. Maybe. No, yes, I try to do that, but you know, also Chardonnay, Chardonnay, which is fermented all in barrel, gives us a lot of work. And because we do wild fermentation or natural fermentation, which means that we are not utilizing commercial yeast. So the fermentation starts alone with the yeast that we have in the cellar and from the vineyard. Those are a little bit more complex fermentations to carry on. So yeah, it's a good amount of work, but it's great. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Except when everything goes good, it's even better. Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of everything going good, what things in Napa Valley don't go so well? Like what are your threats? I mean, are we talking about Pierce's disease? Are you guys really threatened by that? Yeah, so in Napa, I think, generally speaking, it's a quite easy vine growing area in the world. If you take the world as a band, because we don't have a very high mildew pressure, arthritis, yes, in some environments, but you can fight that quite easily. So from that point of view, it's fine. What scares me is obviously the water. That's for me the most important aspect. Water can be, could be a problem. This year we are fine and last year as well, but for the prior three or four years, it has been a big problem. And then we've got frosts, which frosts can be a big problem. We have been in Argentina. There, it's not about can be a problem. It is a problem basically every year. They know they're going to get it as well as ale, but in Napa can be a problem, particularly in the valley floor. We are with Monvita and Spring Mountain. It's more mitigate because the cold air tends to go down in the valley. So the valley floor, it's a little bit more subject to that. But what happens in a bad frost for you guys? What do you, I mean, it just sets you back. Well, obviously it depends when it happens, but I'm talking about the frosts that can heat when we have bud bursts. And yeah, that really can ruin the vintage. But are there ways to come back from that? If you've got a bad frost after bud break? It depends how severe it is, but sometime, no, there is no coming back. Last year in Europe, in Italy and some areas in France, they lost 60, 70 percent. And what they could produce, obviously it's not going to be as high quality as without a frost. But sometimes it can. If it's not so severe, you can just kind of wait for a new bud break. But then you're several weeks behind. Yeah. Yeah. That means also that we have to leave the fruit more on the plant. And the problems with the mildews there, they affect more because obviously if you were supposed to peak in beginning of or mid September and you peak at the end of September or beginning of October, the weather may also change and yeah, that can affect it. We really think and hope not to have frosts. Yes. Have you ever been driven to tears by the weather during harvest? Well, last year with the fire for us has been... Well, that was on my list here to ask you about. So what was your experience for that? How did it go for you guys at Newton? For us, we have been extremely lucky. I think if we compare Newton with other wineries in the valley, we obviously were done with Chardonnay. We were done with Spring Mountain and also Yambil. We picked just a week before the fires, the best blocks of Moumvider for our single vineyard, and some other smaller block for unfiltered. Then we were going to finish the vintage basically, the week of the 9th of October. Things that never really happened because obviously of the fire. So what happened there is we couldn't go to the vineyard anymore. It was very complex to go to the winery as well, but we had all the wines, red wines on skin and fermentation. So me and Andrew were going just to do the minimum, you know, pump overs and some air, one pump over per day if we could, because the smoke was the big problem. And then two and a half weeks after the fire, we could get access to the vineyard in Montvider. The vineyard is fine. Apparently, a lot of vineyards didn't burn because there is not very a mass to burn. So the fire was stopping. You see everything around was burned and the vineyard was still there. Obviously, maybe the first row was affected, but that's it. We still had fruit on the plant, but yeah, we decided not to pick it and leave it there. So I would say we lost about 10 to 15 percent, which as I said, it's bad, but it's not as bad as some other people. So how are the wines developing? I mean, anything that you think may be affected by smoke taint. You got everything in, so you don't have anything in the cellar. We have nothing. Nothing after the fire. So the wines are very nice. The Chardonnay is really great. Well, it's not done, obviously. We still have a long time to age it, but it's really showing great. Spring Mountain, Yarnville and Montvider, obviously Montvider will have less wine. We did pick the best blocks before then, so I'm confident we're going to be able to make single vineyard. Anyway, for the amount of effort that the winery put for this time, the 2017 Vintage, I will be proud of that when we put it on the market, because really it represented the work of many people, which is our team now, and many people that somehow When it comes to harvesting, you do as much by hand as you can? We do 100%. 100%, okay. So with all of your staff you have helping in the vineyard during harvest, are all those people your full-time staff, or do you bring in seasonal? Do you have any issues with that? We work with a company that has been working with us for the past probably 10 years or more, and they do all the farming, obviously supervised by us, and so they also get the people in the vineyard, and they tend to be the same people. Okay, good. So during vintage, we do 100% in Carneros for Chardonnay by hand. We get a little bit of Chardonnay from Rutherford as well, about 15-20% of the filtered Chardonnay blend, and then all the reds are by hand. So yeah, to make the wines that we have in our head as style and quality, I think picking by hand is the best solution for us, even though obviously it's more complex and time-consuming. It's also more expensive. Yeah, but better at the end of the day. Better product. I tend to believe so, yeah. Who are your favorite winemakers right now? Who do you have a winemaker crush on? That's what I want to know. I think through my experience, probably the person that helped me the most in winemaking, not really from a technical point of view, but more from an approach to winemaking is Tim Heath, which is the head winemaker at Cloudy Bay, which I had the luck to work with for three vintages. So I think, yeah. You have a winemaker crush on Tim Heath. I don't know if I should say that. But he was kind of a hero for you. Yes. Yeah. You remember your first vintages as a winemaker in Italy? The first wines you made. Do you have any of those bottles? Yeah. I actually made the first vintage I've done. I was in Piedmont and I made 25 bottles of Dolcetto in the room where I was living at the winery. And I still have two of those. How are they drinking? Well, the last I drank them very well. I still have two. You're going to hold on to them? Yeah, I think. I have no rush to open. Yeah, for sure. I keep them for a bit. Do you collect? Yes, I collect, but I also drink a good amount. We have a good cellar at the winery. That's where we probably collect the most wines. And in Italy, I have a good cellar where probably I collect more than here in Napa. Napa. As I'm there, I tend to drink them more. So you're drinking in the States and collecting in Italy? Probably, yeah. Yeah. That's a dream. That's how I would play it. That's perfect, I think. Yeah. When you're not making wine, what are you doing? What are you thinking about? Bike riding? What are you doing? No, probably before studying wine making, I was thinking I love the sea and biology as well. So the idea was always to do marine biology or medicine. I love the sea, but in Italy, how do you not? I mean, the ocean as well is very wild and full of life. Yes. I mean, you go in New Zealand and you see that, and you don't see that so much in Europe because the Mediterranean is more calm and there is a lot of life there as well, but it's not as wild. I like it better in Mediterranean. To enjoy, yes? Yes, to enjoy yourself. I don't need to be worried about some freaking eel or, yeah, because the ocean scares what's in there. It's freaky. Oh, yeah. But you love it because you're a marine biologist. It's a winemaker by day, marine biologist with a heart of gold. That's awesome. That's cool. Well, thanks a lot. Really appreciate it. Thanks for sitting down with Barrel to Bottle. It's really great for you to make time for us. Now folks, it's time to turn to our customer Q&A portion. If you would like your chance to win a $20 gift card to Binny's Beverage Depot, write us in at Binny's Bev on Twitter. If your question's awesome or really difficult, we'll choose it, we'll chat about it, and we'll give you 20 bucks to spend at any of our Binny's Beverage Depot locations. That's how it works. So we pulled this question from the Wine Expo at Arlington Track, Arlington Racetrack, and we've got Wilson Morales, and he decided to ask us, when does a barrel fall into the label or to the category of a neutral barrel? So Roger, Greg, so barrels are very prevalent, obviously, in whiskey beer and the wine categories. So let's talk about oak. So you want the new oak for some styles. You want to think about your California worm, Rambauer Chardonnay is the most classic example. Then you're going to want a lot of those lactones, vanillin, and all of those funky words. But if you're making wine in Barolo in a traditional way, then you want oak that is very well seasoned. So after about four or five uses, that oak barrel will not impart any more flavor onto the wine. You're just getting the benefit that's of oxidative aging. So you're aging your Nebbiolo, your Barolo in the presence of oxygen. This is going to soften the tannins, and it will promote polymerization as well. Sour beer in the beer world right now is becoming a huge thing. And for the makers of most American style sours, they typically use wine barrels. They're seeking neutral oak for those. They want it to be a controlled environment where the microbes can do their thing. They're not really concerned with getting a ton of either residual wine flavor or wood flavor from the oak. Right, exactly. Food riz also. Traditionally, if you wanted a neutral vessel, you'd use glass or steel or maybe concrete. And concrete has the same benefits that a used, used, used wood, cask wood, that it has some porous qualities, a place for microbial life to exist and not just get scraped away every time the way the glass or steel would. But not even close to the amount of what your barrel will allow. Absolutely. So it's like, it's neutral, so it's not departing flavors, but it gives a great environment for microbial life to really make stuff interesting. Right. We were just at Firestone Walker and they actually had a couple Amphora there, which was neat. Aw, snap. What's that, clay? That's old school, man. Clay, Amphorae? Yeah, it's an earthen, the Amphorae were made of clay. Yeah, no, it's older than where the way the Romans and the Greeks, et cetera, used to carry their wine around. Not the most economically viable way to do it, but once they figured out barrels too, they went nuts. They were like, oh man, these things can roll. We can float these things down rivers. I mean, life was good with the oak barrel in antiquity. But so yeah, so long story longer than Wilson, barrels just aren't neutral. They've got to be made that way, overuse. And then it's only going to be a select few wine makers and wine growers around the world. They're going to be after these neutral barrels. Oftentimes, it's going to be a mix between old and new, second, third, fourth use. And then you'll find those very old wood fermenters or wooden barrels can sometimes be up to a century old and still in great operating condition. Maybe worth talking, multiple use barrels on spirits also, especially scotch. They'll buy the bourbon barrels because first use, obviously America only allows a single use on a bourbon production. But then we'll see second fill, first fill, second fill on some of our Binny's hand picked scotches. First fill, you've got a lot of sherry influence or whatever the cask might be. But then on second fill, it's diminishing and it's more of the previous spirit. And then as we see spirit producers pass barrels back and forth to beer producers, we're getting less of the qualities of the barrel and more of the qualities of the previous batch of liquid that was in the barrel. Exactly. So the complex world of barrel aging, I mean, we could go on forever. That's just a basic explanation of what makes a barrel neutral and when and why it might be used in the wine spirits in beer world. Twenty bucks worth of answer right there. Way to go. Twenty bucks to buy some sherry finished scotch or some barrel aged stout or some traditional Barolo with no new oak, baby. All right, cool. Thanks, Wilson. Enjoy. And be sure to write us your question at Binny's Bev on Twitter for your chance at a $20 Binny's gift card. We have a little game that we play with winemakers and anybody kind of VIP. When they do a seminar or continuing education seminar, I give them a three-word challenge. So what this means is I have three words that Catherine and I have chosen for you that you have to say at some point during the seminar. The reigning champion today is Paul Hobbs. So you can take his crown. He took the crown from David Guffey. Your words are tomato, because you're Italian. Newfangled, it means attracted to novelty or the newest. And then the Hulk. I always do a comic book character, the Hulk. Yeah. Newfangled. Newfangled.