Oh, it's got that glug that Versh loves so much. He does. Welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Pat, here with my co-host Kristen. How are you doing, Kristen? Good, I'm good. It's whiskey again, dude. So I'm great, man. That means it's the best kind of podcast. Exactly. And here's our other host, Roger. Hey folks, how are you doing? His name is Roger, but... Roger. Roger is just... That's when I'm on the Champagne Podcast. Exactly. All right, we got to cover a couple of things. Today it's rye. So people are like, you know, I love bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon's hot, blah, blah, blah. But then when they say rye, I think there's a lot of confusion. A lot of people don't understand that rye is a second kind of whiskey all on its own, even though bourbons can contain a portion of rye and some famously do, there's a bit of confusion between the two styles. I blame the Canadians. They call whiskey with no rye in it at all up there, rye whiskey. So it's really just mucking up everything. Roger, when you are teaching somebody, do you find that this is an issue that people don't really understand the rye component or the rye category on its own? People make judgments about whether or not they're going to like rye off the bat. There's definitely room for some education and all ryes are not created equal as well, so they can really vary depending on the producer. Rye is definitely a category that takes a little time and a little bit of explanation to get your full grasp of it. I think part of it is that rye was really dead for so long. Then it was kept on life support by one or two brands. Then these brands, their production source moved. They became bottom shelf, just grandpa stuff. Nobody really understood it. Nobody saw it. Nobody wanted it. Just all knowledge of rye as a finesse and an interesting whiskey and a complex whiskey fell by the wayside when it just became one or two brands on the bottom shelf. Right. Now it's very popular for producers of bourbon to have a rye or two or three to add to their product range. Absolutely. I mean, it's at the rye Renaissance. We're in the middle of it right now. The deeper people explore classic cocktails, the more they're going to realize that, wow, these cocktails I've enjoyed for the past few years have really traditionally been made with rye whiskey because that's what everybody drank. Manhattan, classic example. One of the most popular cocktails ordered, usually made with bourbon nowadays, but originally it was a rye based cocktail. That's correct. Let's talk about bourbon quickly. But then we'll talk about how rye is different. Then we'll talk about, well, I have a little list here and you guys know this better than I do. What's traditional bourbon, who's high rye, who's weeded, etc. Rye versus bourbon flavors, what to expect from the glass. Then we're going to talk about what rye versus bourbon does to your cocktail. We have an example of an old-fashioned here. So you've got one that's created with bourbon and another that's fitted with rye, and we're going to see how that plays for us. Now, let's just get it out on the table that I can't win today when it comes to these darn old-fashioned, whether it's an orange peel, a piece of fruit, muddling, not muddling. I'm a big proponent of do whatever the heck you want. That is the number one cocktail rule. Right. Does it taste good? But I've been getting crap all day long about, so I'm from Wisconsin. So what do we do with it? We smash the crap out of the fruit. It's the cherry and the orange, and then well, they put brandy in it. A brandy old-fashioned sweet to me is nasty. That is just a sugar bomb and a hangover that I just don't want. Roger, what's your take on the old-fashioned? Is it the fruit? Is it the peel? What do I do? You're in a unique situation being from Wisconsin. They drink probably more old-fashions and have for decades. So they have kind of their whole own ritual, things that you really aren't going to find at other bars, especially if you were to go downtown. I mean, a lot of Wisconsin old-fashions have sodas in them. They'll use like a grapefruit soda. They'll use brandy, like you said. But an old-fashioned involves having a sugar cube. I like making them with sugar cubes as opposed to simple syrup. You're going to douse that with bitters, and you're going to muddle that cube down until it turns into, it's still a little gritty, but you're going to smash that with a piece of orange peel. Add some bourbon or rye or whatever spirit you like. Stir all that up and then incorporate a little splash of club soda, seltzer water. I like club soda in my old-fashioned. I don't like it with Sprite. It's just too much. It's too in your face. Sprite's a little over the top. Club soda breaks up the texture. It keeps it from being too heavy, too syrupy, but without adding even more sugar and fruit flavor that you really don't need there. All it does is obscure the whiskey. The whiskey should be the star of the show. Right. Quality whiskeys, let those shine. Again, some of the bars you're going into, like in Wisconsin, they're dumping Kessler in there, so feel free to cover up the taste of Kessler with whatever you can find. You f***ing snob. Right? What a snob. Can you give me your best Wisconsin accent? What area? I mean, it's only really when you go really far up north. Oh, Chris, just give me a... Yeah, I mean, that's more... Bob Dare is out to go to Old Fashioned, he wanted it sweet. You don't take this from him. Let him have his try. I order me Old Fashioned. I like them a little bit on the drier side, so I'll order them sour. That's great. So like what part of Wisconsin was that from for you? Really far north? Like your... UP kind of thing? Yeah, UP Minnesota. Got to get that treaty point back? Because the people down in, I don't know, they'd be like, hey, can I get an Old Fashioned? It's like almost like a Chicago accent. That was the same accent you just did. I fully intend on getting all of this cut. All right, cool. So how is Whiskey made? First, it's distilling grain mash. Okay. So can you talk to me about creating that mash and what a mash bill is, Roger? One of the many rules of producing bourbon is that the mash bill or ingredients list, when it comes to the grains, has to be at least 51 percent corn. It's usually closer to around 70 percent. Then you use typically as a flavoring grain, rye, and then you need a little bit of malted barley. So what do you do to make a mash? So we start with the raw materials with all those grains. They're going to go through a hammer mill. They're going to get smashed into kind of like a coarse flour. They're put into a cooker with water and they cook the mash. So it ends up looking kind of porridge-y. It goes from that mash cooker after it's cooked, the different temperatures depending on the grains. Once they've completed cooking all three of those, it goes into the fermenters, depending on what type of distillery we're talking about, the old-fashioned kind of way and the charming way when you go on some of these tours. There are these old big Cypress wood fermenters and the mash gets put in those and the magic of fermentation begins. Depending on what stage the mash is fermenting at, they start to bubble. They kind of look as though they're being heated, but it's just the yeast eating away at all the fermentable sugar that's in the mash. Well, the bubble is because of carbon dioxide. Yeah, CO2. Yeah, as a byproduct. So once we take that mash bill and we cook it down and we create basically beer, for lack of a better term, we're ready to distill. I mean, we're talking column still here for the most part, because we're making a buttload of whiskey. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're lucky. So bourbon, 51 percent minimum corn, but Roger, you said normally it's about 70 percent. So traditional recipes for the mash bill would be about 70 percent corn, then 15 percent rye, maybe 15 percent barley. And these are going to be like the Jim Beam, the wild turkeys and off creeks. Barley can be even lower. Barley can be as low as like 5 percent. So then we've got high rye. Who are some high rye producers that we might know? High rye, the biggest high rye producer most people know is going to be Four Roses. And they'll use up to 35 percent rye. And that's pretty standard as far as high rye goes. The MGPI Distillery in Southern Indiana and Lawrenceburg, Indiana, also has a 35 percent rye mash bill. I think they have a couple that are higher. They actually have a lot of different mash bills down there. But for the big traditional Kentucky players, Four Roses is about as high rye as it gets at 35 percent. So Buffalo Trace has two different bourbon mashers, one high rye, one low rye. Their high rye is not as high as Four Roses or LDI. So they're the low end of high rye? Yeah. Jim Beam does make Old Grandad and Basil Hayden's whiskies. And those are higher rye mash bills as well. Okay. And then the most famous, most sought after, and we did a podcast on this, are weeded bourbons. So wheat basically just creates a very softer, more approachable, round and even sweeter style. And people just are baddie for that right now. Do you think it's two camps, rye versus weeded bourbon? I think that's kind of confusing the issue a bit. I mean, it's people who are just baddie for weeded bourbon, I think it's a combination of rarity and easy drinking. And just because a bourbon is high rye doesn't mean it's not a big, sweet, easy drinking whiskey either. I mean, Roger mentioned Old Granddad. It's not like Old Granddad is some spice bomb, you know? Old Granddad is known for having a rich kind of toffee character to it. Big fan of Old Granddad. It's a sleeper. Especially if you like Basil Haydn's Give Old Granddad a Try. One of the things that we talked about when we were talking about Pappy Van Winkle, something to really consider when you discuss whiskeys and especially when weeded comes into play is proof. We get asked this all the time. People seeking whiskeys that are smooth or don't have a lot of burn. I mean, all those are subjective terms and it's all a perception. Bourbon famously for many years was typically bottled at 100 proof. If you're going to drink a bourbon that's at 100 versus a bourbon that's at 80, regardless of the mash bill, that's going to really change how you perceive the bourbon, whether it's harsh to you or too spicy or too big. So if you have a high rye bourbon and it's bottled at a higher proof, that's probably going to be pretty intense whiskey, something that you might want to add some water to or some ice. But if you have one of the more famous weeded bourbons, like say Maker's Mark, it's 90. So I mean, it's higher than 80, which is the minimum proof, but it's still softer just because it's lower alcohol. And then once you factor in as well that it's a weeded bourbon, where you get that perceived sweetness, because weed is pretty neutral in flavor, lets that corn sweetness come through, and rye adds arguably that spicy richer flavor. So it's a combination of lacking the rye and wheat not imparting anything that makes it kind of softer. So what are legalizations, if you will, for rye? What do I got, if I want to make a rye on the label? It's very similar to bourbon. To label it rye whiskey, it has to be made from at least 51% rye. It has to come off the still no higher than 160 proof, can't go into barrel for aging higher than 125 proof, it has to be aged in a new charred oak barrel, and that's about it. If you want to label it a straight rye whiskey, it has to be at least two years old, and it can't be blended with any other spirits or flavorings or colorings. If you're just going to label it a rye whiskey, it can be blended with a little bit of flavoring, actually, and some coloring too. The first whiskey I brought for us to try today is Whiskey Acres Rye. This is new as of just the other day at Binny's Beverage Depot. This is a single barrel, hand selected by us, and it is bottled at cast strength. So Whiskey Acres has a relatively low entry proof. So this is right at about 60 percent alcohol, which is not that far off of their entry proof. So when I'm talking about basic classic definition of rye and glass, right, versus bourbon, traditional, what am I looking for in terms of aroma? How do I know if I'm blinding that one is the other? Classic rye calling cards in distillation are very specifically dill and like a menthol mint eucalyptus character. And if you ever smell either of those things in a distilled spirit, you know right away that is rye. Whereas with wine, correct me if I'm wrong, dill is more of an American oak type of thing or something. Not true with whiskey, that is rye's calling card. Okay. And then bourbon by contrast? Bourbon, corn. I mean, and you know corn when you smell it. It's kind of sweet. It's got that, I always kind of described as corn pudding. It's got that cooked corn, sweet corn kind of thing going on. And you know it when you smell it. I like when he says pudding. Puddin. Since rye is more assertive of a grain, has more character, you probably pick up on some of the aromas and flavors that you get out of the wood more in bourbon. So there's definitely more perceived like vanilla maple character out of bourbons. For sure. Rye is a powerful, it's not subtle. I mean, however you want to put it, it is a pretty in your face grain. So like smell Whiskey No. 2 here, High West Double Rye, to me that is definitely big on the dill. And that's immediately rye. But now that's interesting because that's a blend of young high percentage rye and old low percentage rye. See, I get a lot of the dill on this Whiskey Acres. And it has a very sweet smelling nose to it. It's very approachable compared to a lot of ryes that you guys have turned me on to over the years. Well, those big powerful rye flavors, they can hide youth in a whiskey easily. So if you took a Scotch, for example, that's three years old, if you tried a three-year-old Macallan, boy, it would taste like crap. But you try a three-year-old Smokey Islay whiskey or a three-year-old rye whiskey, those intense flavors like dill and mint and iodine or smoke with the Islay Scotch, they're going to cover up the flaws of youth. They're going to cover up the green wood. You're not going to perceive as light of a body because of it. I definitely get the minty, but the spice, the pepper spice on the palate with this Whiskey Acres rye is just, it's out there. It's super concentrated and very flavorful. Yeah, totally. It's got a lot of pepper. I get a lot of baking spice with rye. I get a lot of sharper brown spice, not so much softer like cinnamon and clove, but a little less of that nutmeg. If you've never cooked with allspice, allspice is a magical ingredient. It's actually one of the token most important flavors in barbecue sauce. Yes. If you're not like familiar with it, you probably have tasted it through barbecue sauce. But I get lots of allspice flavors in rye, which I like. So the second is this High West. It's High West Double Rye. So what does that mean to people that are buying that? It is labeled, quote, a blend of straight rye whiskies. So what this is, this is a blend of younger rye whiskey that's at least two years old from the Lawrenceburg Distillery in Indiana. That's a high percentage rye, 35% rye. And it's blended with an old, like 16-year-old rye whiskey from the Tom Moore Distillery, the old Tom Moore Distillery in Kentucky, which is now closed. And that was a low rye. That was what we would refer to now as a Kentucky-style rye, which is very low, kind of minimal percentage rye, drinks fatter, sweeter, chewier, like a bourbon. So you have this old, oaky, chewy, sweet stuff balanced with a pretty high percentage of this young, spicy, punchy, snappy rye whiskey. This rye is a great value. Ironically, when Pat was talking about how not that long ago, there were really only about four rye whiskies on the shelf, then we had this rye resurgence and it blew up and there's millions now. Ironically, the category has just become this really expensive whisky in a lot of regards and I think for the money, this high-rest double rye is something I recommend. Well, in terms of pronounced aromatics, it is a lot more reserved than the Whiskey Acres. Whiskey Acres for me is really in your face. This is a little bit dialed back. Again, I agree. Some of that's proof too. Yeah, part of that is proof. We're working with 120 versus 92. See, subjectively, I call that smooth because of the proof. That's pretty easy drinking. I'd pair that with some corn puddin in a heartbeat. Great with barbecue. What's third, dude? What do we got? Ooh, I like this one, Rittenhouse. Our third whiskey is a classic. It is Rittenhouse Rye Bottled and Bond, four-year-old minimum, to be bottled and bond, and bottled at 100 proof. I always recommend this for people looking to try rye and cocktails, because it's a great cocktail proof. Yes. You don't want to get your whiskey water down in a cocktail. 100 proof stands up to it, gives a little more body. Now, this is one of those classic Pennsylvania rye brands. So, way back in the day when we, America, was distilling, we were making rum, and we loved making rum. We were importing all kinds of molasses from the Caribbean. We decided to rebel against the British throne. They blockaded our ports. We still wanted to drink, so we needed to find another sugar source to make alcohol with. So then we turned to rye whiskey predominantly in the Northeastern United States. More bourbon in southern areas, central, I mean, whatever was considered then Western frontier, I suppose, in Kentucky and Tennessee. But Northeastern United States really made rye whiskey famous. And in fact, by 1808, just Menongahela County in Pennsylvania was making enough rye whiskey to supply every single man, woman, and child in the country with half a barrel of rye whiskey a year out of one county in Pennsylvania. That's a child's Christmas miracle right there, you know? It really is. That's cool. That's an interesting story. So Pennsylvania rye traditionally is very, very high rye. Back then, it was 100% rye. What's this guy? This guy is now, because this brand has closed, the distilleries made it close long ago, the brand was bought by a big distiller in Kentucky. They make it and it is now Kentucky style rye. This is low. This is about as low as it gets, 53, 57% rye, something like that. I'm happy you said that because immediately when I smelled it, I'm like, this is one of the most bourbon smelling ryes that I've ever had in my life. That's why I love it. I hate the fact that the history has changed like that, but I love it because it drinks big and chewy like a bourbon. But you still get enough of that snappy rye grain in the finish, though. It's great transitional rye. So I would say that this rye, as well as Templeton, are the two pivotal ryes that blew up the rye market. Both of them, ironically, aren't necessarily very typical rye flavors. And then by contrast, we've got a bourbon just to see how it is side by side. This is Old Forester 1920. This is part of their Whiskey Roast Series, which celebrates different milestones in the brand, with different bourbons at different proofs. This is my favorite everyday on the shelf, always available bourbon. It is a great, great bottle. It's 55 bucks. It's high proof. It's 115 proof. I recommend this to everybody looking for stuff like Elmer Lee and Blanton's, these hard to find, mature, big, powerful bourbons. This is what I always recommend. I absolutely love this stuff. I agree. This is great. But this is a lot of that spicy, peppery characteristic, much similar to a rye. I think part of that, though, is the proof coming into play there, too. It's not a weeded bourbon. It is a rye bourbon. But it's not over the... It's not really high rye or anything. It's just... It's showing you its cards. It's showing you what it is. It's got... That's a combination, for me, of oak spice with rye spice and high proof. It kind of fools you into thinking like, oh, is this a rye? Right. I like that. This one is, I agree, is a great bourbon. It's great. So bourbon and rye are obviously very different drinks, but more importantly for home applications, I don't want to just sit around just drinking bourbon straight around the rocks all the time. I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes I do want that, but I want to do some cocktails with them too. And so the big question here is, how are these two classic American spirits gonna differentiate themselves in one of the classic American cocktails? In the tasting room at Binny's Lincoln Park, which I think is one of the best kept secrets. Absolutely. Killer capless, killer liqueurs, all of it, never crowded. I mean, our staff is awesome and the prices are bomb. But the wine list for me as a wine person is just, dude. So hey, if you guys haven't seen our tasting room and come to have a happy hour cocktail, we would love to see you. So we took the old fashioned recipe from our tasting room in Lincoln Park. So we used two and a half ounces of Russell's Reserve, 10 year old bourbon. You can use a rye if you'd like to. I suggest the Russell's as well. Half an ounce of Demerara Simple Syrup we make in house. Three dashes of Angostura Bitters, a rocks glass. You stir with a large ice cube. She'll garnish with an orange peel and a cherry. And then of course, the muddling conversation ensues and we won't get into that, but I prefer, how Roger has it here, sitting here while we're taping, is the actual orange wedge with the flesh, getting that juicy component into the old fashioned itself. And that's kind of, Roger, how I like it. It's how I learned. My concern is that greedy orange wedge sucks up some of my drink, does it not? Yeah, but then you just eat the flesh. Then I have to eat fruit? I was going to say, I knew that was coming. So anyway, on the left here, we got the bourbon old fashioned. The bourbon ones, a little fuller bodied, a little, not quite as spicy in the rye character, but a little spicier in proof because we use a higher proof bourbon. I get a little bit of that dill wintergreen component for sure. It still comes through, but it plays nicely with the rest of the ingredients. For sure, I think they start out remarkably similar, but on the finish, they really separate themselves. The bourbon, you can tell, is higher proof, and it's got that, again, corn pudding sweetness to it, but more oak character too, but that rye, just in the finish, it has just this snappy, spicy punch of rye in the finish. It's almost like a quenching element. Of the two glasses, I feel more inclined to grab the rye and have a second sip of the rye one right now than I do the bourbon. I don't like a ton of sweet, so since the Old Fashioned in itself is inherently kind of a sweeter mix, I prefer the spicier, drier rye because I think it adds a few more layers of flavor, but it kind of brings down that sweetness a bit, which I Yeah, it brings balance to the force. Yep. It's easy to get stuck in a rut with your favorite cocktail at home, whether that's an Old Fashioned, a Manhattan, a Julep, a Sazerac, whatever you're making, you can always add a different dimension, try something new without totally changing your routine with the cocktail or anything. Just change from a rye to a bourbon or change from a bourbon to a slightly higher proof one, vice versa with rye. There's a lot of cool stuff you can do that all just slightly tweaks these cocktails, adds a little dimension of flavor to it, something new, but it doesn't totally mess with anything. Come out of the comfort zone. Yeah. Play around with stuff. Rye is a great reminder of that, that you should, it's okay to put some water, it's okay to put some ice, try it a bunch of different ways. Thanks again for tuning in to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Beverage Depot Podcast. I'm Pat. I'm Roger. I'm Kristen. Keep tasting, guys. Bye.