Didn't I get to do this once with you guys remotely, like four years? You were our first call-in guest. Was it really? It was like three years ago or so, right? Yeah. We were in one of our favorite soundbites actually too. It was about summer beers, and we had Josh in the room too, and he kept saying crushable. And then on the phone, you went, Crushable! And now we make crushes. How appropriate. Destiny. Yeah, right. Love it. I want to paint a visual picture for our listeners, because this is a visual moment. Sam, somewhat public figure, definitely a decade older than any of us. That hurts. Yeah, you look 10 years younger than any of us. I don't know how you pulled it off. The last time I saw Sam was when I was still buying beer, and we were at Bavarian Lodge. It must have been like 10 years ago or something. Don Bixle was still- We were out with Don last night. Old bald grouch. Don Bixle was still our Dogfish Head rep. And we were having a Schweinhachs at Bavarian Lodge. Do you remember that? That big gelatinized pork shank? It was- It's pretty gross. It sounds gross. Alan at Bavarian Lodge was really excited to see the look on your face when this weird chunk of pork and fat came out of the kitchen. I remember that. It was perfect beer food though. Yeah. Yeah. I want to say we were drinking like Palo Santo on tap or something. You know, some rich, heavy ass beer to match the food. Decadence on decadence. Yeah. Kind of beer that'd get me shot if I ever stepped into Bavaria with wood from Paraguay and a beer. So, Bogdan heard you were coming too and he brought two different film cameras, like 128-millimeter old-timey camera and a double eight. And mostly, he wanted to make sure that the Super 8 was still being made, which of course it hasn't for four years. That's incredible. That's right. We did a beer called Super 8 that was designed to have the specific pH to develop film in. Be delicious, but also develop film in. What a ridiculous concept. I mean, it was okay. Yeah. The concept of the beer, I thought the beer was delicious. The beer was fine. Yeah. You like SeaQuench better? That's good. Greg always says that's fine. That's his thing. It was a great beer. It was fine. I was trying to figure out, do you think the salinity and pH of SeaQuench, he could doctor it and develop film with that as well? In an emergency situation. It wasn't designed for that application, but if you found yourself in a zombie apocalypse, saying you wanted photos. He's going to take your picture later. He's going to want to take your picture on film. Let's do it. Yeah. He's going to have to doctor up SeaQuench. That's what we came up with. Perfect. Let's do it. All right. Hey, that's some preamble. You guys want to start recording a podcast episode? Okay, let's do it. Hey, you're listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, I do communications at Binny's. Hey, I'm Pat, I do the spirit stuff at Binny's. Roger, you've been barking up this tree for like three years, so I don't know what we're gonna do after this. Finally, in the studio with us, a special guest, Sam Calagione of Dogfish Head Brewing. It's great to be here with you gents. It's really a pleasure to have you here. We first had the chance to speak with you on a podcast where we were talking about summer beers. And Seaquench was a major highlight of that. It really is one of those beers that we think of every summer time as one of the most perfectly engineered refreshing beers. Day drinking in liquid form. But is that the one with the black limes? Yeah, right. Never gonna forget that. Yep. Black limes, lime juice. Oh, we're gonna pull some around. Oh, seriously? Just name other kinds of beers, guys. I want a unicorn. The corporate suits from Dogfish Head are wearing Hawaiian shirts. Hey, look at me. I'm semi-casual. Yeah, terrific. Says the guy in the button-up shirt. I know. I know. Look at you. Supposed to be a manager. Right? But yeah, see, and we were checking out, we were at your Lincoln store today, which looked awesome, but super depleted after the Memorial Day. It was a busy weekend. Yeah. It looked intense. And I know SeaQuench is a part of that. And you guys were really appreciative of that support. And I think it's important that is the sour fruit is a fruit and sour category, because I feel like it's a category that doesn't get captured as much in scan data. It doesn't get the love of certain styles that are more oriented towards three tier distribution. It seems like it's growing though. You should try making it more hazy than people pay attention. Everything, make everything more hazy. Well, you know the problem with sours these days, Sam, is that they're usually too sweet because people are dumping in lactose and fruit puree and- Kool-Aid beers. Yeah. The sour category has changed so much just in the last 20 years. I mean, we can remember when people geeked out about sours, it was more like the wild beer realm of things, so Lambique's and Cantillon. That has just dropped off a cliff. It's been really sad. Brof is a huge fan of that, has sellers a lot of these Lambique's. All of them are for Pat's Basement. They're not for drinking, they're for collecting. But- There's fruited sours that tend to, as you said, be naturally, sometimes unnaturally sweetened, seems to have captured younger generations. But we're super proud of Seaquench, but I'd say Odell's does a beautiful sour with a gentle hand that's not too sweet. Yeah, it's super pretty, it's just solid. Yeah, and Ciara. So I think there's some awesome great ones out there in Distro if you're not looking for those, because those ones you eat oftentimes at small tasting breweries, they have all the awesome colors. They are great as a first sip or three ounce, but it's not really six-pack style for me. Yeah, you're not, the crushable is not the word for your blueberry crumble, Berliner Weiss or whatever it is. Yeah Roger, that was gross. They always give me a guff because I'm making them try everything that's out there. I'm like, well, that's our job. We try it so that our customers don't have to sometimes. Brave, if I can sum you guys up in one word, it's brave. We try. I mean, we set a trap for Roger because if he only brings us old man beers, then we complain about that. But if he brings us anything new, we complain that they're not the styles that we love. Rocking hard placement every time. With this beer, this is like a three threads beer. It's three different styles of classic German. You've got Kölsch, Berliner, and a Goza. I still remember when you came out with Festina Pesch. Oh, that beer was great. Customers, a couple of different customers brought it back to the service desk and were like, this beer is bad, man. It's sour. We're like, success. We nailed the style. One quarter of what we produce got sent back to our breweries because retailers and distributors were like, hey, your beer went sour. You had to be one of the first Berliner's on the market. At least large scale. There wasn't even really a Berliner from Berlin at the time. There was Kindle was maybe there. People were like, this is sour, no one's going to drink it. Then that year, we were like, all right, screw it. We were drinking ourselves the one quarter that got sent back to us. Then we took a case and sent it to the World Beer Cup and us, Cantillon and Rodenbach, who we've been lucky enough to collaborate with, took gold, metal and silver. Then people like, can I get some of that Fes Dino Lenten here? We sent you a palette last year and you get sent it back to us. We're really proud of how long we've been in the fruited sour game at Dogfish. We're psyched to see it going off nationally now. I like the transition into the sequence too. I mean, it's still in that same family, but it's a little more, I don't know. I like the refreshing element of it. You see some unnamed big beer go really hard at the athletics and the svelte runner crowd with low carb beer and stuff. I think I'm going to see if the name svelte runner is taken and untapped when we get done here. So, when you made Festina, what made you think to even brew a style like that? Because you'd had the original. I mean, you're famously not necessarily on point with true to style. You were going to fight against the Reinheitsgebot if anything, right? Rage against the Reinheitsgebot. Yeah. You're right. Actually, I want to give props to a little brew that's not there anymore, but the brewer Kurt has gone on to have an awesome career in beer of nodding head. Ironically, it was the original Sam Adams Brew Pub, in downtown Philly, and when they left that space, a little brew called Nodding Head came in, and they did a very traditional Berliner where you have the fruits like in Berlin, where you're not adding fruit during fermentation. It's at the point of service that you're adding the Woodruff syrup or the Berry syrup. I was watching them do that and add it behind it. I'm like, oh, what if you actually rate when the yeast takes off in primary fermentation, you start dosing in pureed fruit, and that was the genesis of Festina Pesce, so that was and Festina Lente with the local peaches. That's what it came from. It wasn't so much a Berlin reference, it was being in a little brew pub in Philly where they added Woodruff in a thing. But I don't think anyone was really doing commercial distributed sour beers with fermented fruit when we first launched that, which probably helped contribute to how poorly it sold the first year. I think one of the sneaky elements to this that makes it so dialed in is that cool sh component that gives it a little more body that's not quite as thin as some sours where it gives a little more. Yeah. It softens the acidity in a way, I think, to have a little bready character in there. Yeah. It creates a lower acidity environment to grow the yeast in before you shock that fraction of the wort with the acidity of the Berliner and the Goza threads. This beer is a trap. I cannot stop drinking it. In the last half that I've had, I have noticed that I'm hungry. Caught in a trap. Yeah. Elvis wrote that song about sequential. So, you always find a way to incorporate some really unique ingredients in a lot of your beers, and this one has black limes, correct? Where did you come across that and how did you decide to put that in here? Yeah. So, like I said, I gave shouts to, yesterday I was at the amazing Sheffields, one of the institutions near Mead, an amazing city. In the shadow of Wrigley Field. It's beautiful, and Rocky and Mark walked me to their vintage cellar where there were corked bottles of Life and Limb, a beer we first did with Sierra Nevada, with Birch Syrup and Maple, and I bought one uncorked it, sent a text to Brian and Ken Grossman, my daughter, my son, and my wife, because we designed that beer to hit its prime when my daughter turns 21, and I sent her a photo of, I'm drinking at famous Sheffields, in one year and a half from now, you can have your first beer, and she sends me a photo back of her in Italy drinking wine. I was like, drinking age there is 18, but I would say we love giving props to other brewers, but the only place we don't look for creative inspiration is in the world of beer. I love Untapped and Beer Advocate, and walking the floors of your store as I did this morning, but I'm not looking at what people are doing for ingredients. So for the beer, for Black Limes, it was I think Sevor magazine, a cooking magazine, and they were talking about You're like, sounds expensive. That sounds deliciously expensive. How was it tracking down enough of those four? I mean, this is a nationally distributed beer. I mean, where does this rank in the portfolio now? Yeah, it's probably number four in Shouts to Chicagoland because it's growing strong here. And with the pandemic, it is one that our company had to make decisions because so much draft business went away temporarily. So we chose to not inundate our distributors and retailers with kegs of sea quench. We pulled that out. We kept 60 as an option. But now the sea quench is back. And to your point, Pat, it was like we started making it when we had, we could always source the black limes. But if you watched us brew the first like five batches of sea quench on a big system, it's like that computer scene in Zoolander where they're just whaling the container. We just put in sacks and cracked it against the brew house wall like monkeys. Then we finally took an apple press and we've pretty much duct taped an old clothes dryer to the apple press, put a big thing over it and taped a sign of a wrapper on the front, and it's called Busta Limes. That's the machine now that crushes up the black limes. It spits limes really fast. It's like a giant rock tumbler. Yes, it is. It looks like that. It has a big hopper. That's how we do the black limes. Wow. Yep. Busta Limes. And how many pounds of black limes are you going through now? It's tons of black limes. Yeah, a year. I don't think any other... We're the only people doing tons of black limes in anything in North America. We got that going for us. Nice. Soon to be the North American black lime distributor, there's money when you start reselling those black limes. Wholesale business. I love it. Well, it's a pain to ask for them to make it in scale because basically what it is is they take regular limes, they put them in a big vat of seawater and then they boil it down to all the hydrations out of the limes and they lay them out in the sun and let them dry out even further. Sounds very cheap to do, yeah. Next time you buy a six pack of Sea Quench, realize that it's a screaming bargain as you're keeping the lime farmers of the Middle East employed. Unbelievable. So, black limes are just one in a really long list of, at times, really bizarre ingredients that you've incorporated into beer. What are some of the other- You can even call them off-centered ingredients. Thank you. You're welcome. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Showing off the marketing suits in the corner. Love it, love it. As a marketer, I will say it made me super proud that in your story, I know you guys are big believers in Slightly Mighty, and that'd be an example of using an exotic ingredient very judiciously, more in the background of a recipe, whereas the Black Lime is more in the foreground of a sequence with Slightly Mighty. The monk fruit that we were the first elk beverage company to bring monk fruit into commercial product, and we found it on the shelf of a supermarket. There's stevia in the raw, sugar in the raw. I found monk fruit in the raw, and I bought it and did a small five-barrel batch of beer, and found that it had this amazing added body without any calories to the beer. When you drink Slightly Mighty, it's slight in calories and mighty in hop character. But the monk fruit doesn't look like a fruit beer, it's just a kind of a phantom body in the beer. It's like glycerol and cheap tequilas. Well, maybe it's like that. It's like how you brew a beer with Maui, right? They use breadfruit. Yeah. Again, technically a fruit, but by no means would you think of it as fruit. I mean, it's bizarre. I don't know if it's got fruit in the name. I'd assume it was a fruit, Roger. I guess that's true, but that was inspiring. I got to go to Egypt and saw the earliest human physical description of the brewing art which was on a hieroglyph on a wall in the tomb of Tay. What's super cool is the earliest representation of brewing, it was a symbol that meant both beer and bread. So they didn't differentiate between liquid goodness and of course, beer is often called liquid bread. So that was the inspiration for the liquid breadfruit beer with our pals at Maui. Greg, we should put in a budget request for remote recording in that tomb in Egypt sometimes. We can go via Maui and then we'll see the Maui breadfruit and then Egypt. All right. It goes on Pat's expensive camera. Let's ride. So for some of our listeners that, I mean, we're beer geeks that have been in a game for a long time, but for people that are newer to Dogfish, kind of just walk through like Pat mentioned your slow, your mantra, which I think is a pretty great one, off-centered beer for off-centered people. Where did you come up with that and what does that really mean to you? Yeah. Well, I would say our whole, the craft brewing movement was founded by a bunch of amazing rebellious people. I mentioned Ken Grossman, and Jim Cook. I put in that category, even smaller breweries, some that didn't make it like New Albion, which was an OJ on Cali or Carol Stoud, the first amazing female brewmaster from the East Coast Stoud Brewery. That generation was making these amazing local beautiful beers, but mostly referencing modern European beer styles. So for me, when I was writing the business plan rate as a home brewer out of college, I was like, I'm trying to raise a quarter million dollars. I'm not going to be able to really make a statement trying to make a better pale ale than Sierra. You didn't start with an amber ale? I did not. The temptation was there in the early 90s. If I knew what IRI data was, I would have probably started with an amber ale. But I was like, there's no way we'll stand out if we try and copy what these amazing first generation craft brewers are doing. So that led to the first page of the business plan said Dogfish Head will be committed to brewing the majority of our beers outside the Ryan Heights about incorporating culinary ingredients. The second page was an Emerson quote that's a little longer. And so we shortened that on our packaging to just be off-center deals for off-center people. Where in the business plan does it talk about using derelict appliances as fruit presses? That's the second great beer name you've come up with. Derelict appliances. I'm writing that one down. Derelict appliances. Well, I think necessity is the mother of nature, right? I was watching a chef show in 99, and they were talking about adding little pinches of cracked pepper to a soup continually while the soup simmered and how it would be better woven into the- That's where the continually hop thing came from? Exactly. Then of course, I couldn't afford to design a hike. We took a vibrating football game, duct-taped a plastic bucket to it, perforated the holes, and that was their original continual hopping machine, which, yes, everybody laughed at us when they look in the brewery in a vibrating football games over the Boyle Count. But I'll proudly say that original football game is now in the permanent collection of the Smithsonian with the Wright Brothers Plains and recognized as an American invention. So we're very proud that- That's awesome. It is awesome. Our continual hop to IPAs. How is it done now? We got some 60-minute here, because we can't not talk about 60-minute today. How does the continually hopping thing work now on a much more industrial scale? So first, you've probably seen on the back of bumper stickers as you're in the traffic around Chicago, that Darwin bumper sticker of the fish to the monkey to the human. So the vibrant football game was the fish in that chronology. Then the second generation, we built a pneumatic little tray, and every minute it would grab under a hopper four ounces of hops, and that was called Sir Hopps a lot. Then we had a bigger one that was a pneumatic cannon called Sofa King, like a picture of a sofa on it. So Sofa King Hoppy. Now we just have these huge 55-gallon stainless steel cylindrical tanks that every minute, a pneumatic cannon fires that into the 200-barrel brews. Wow. That's really cool. For 60 and 90 and 120. It's so cool. While we were talking about fruited sours and lower ABV beers, and I'd love to talk more and get your guys' opinion on styles that are going off in Chicago land. For sure. But I will say it's cool to see what you guys are doing with 90 Minute. I know New Belgium's got great trends for their Imperials. So it does seem like Imperials, maybe unlike the Cantillon's of the world, that is a style that has persisted in a beautiful way. What would you guys say about that? We've seen the high ABV New Belgium IPAs really take off. People perceive value in higher alcohol. I think that that's at a lot of it is that they really enjoy craft beer and things that are made with care, but they can justify splurging on that in some senses if it's a little higher alcohol. Money usually indicates that there's other dialed up intensities too. I'm in that camp of stupid people who think that high alcohol beers are great. I don't think we're stupid. Ninety Minute is so great. It's been a minute since I had a 90 minute, probably two years or so. Yeah. Oh my God, this 90 minutes smells so good. This is one of my beers, man. This is the style I go for. I love how animated you just got over a beer recipe. He loves resin blended with high alcohol. That's what I like, yeah. Yeah. To your point on the higher ABVs, so when we came out with 90 Minute, the original bottle that you guys carried, and I remember sending our first box truck of it to you guys, and it was 750 mil cork finish with a picture of a circus re-cammering a nail into his nose, because that's what the intensity we wanted to be. Because remember, as far as I know, 90 Minute is the first beer that ever had IPA and Imperial on the same label. It was an homage to the English styles of both IPA and Russian Imperial style, but Imperial IPAs are an American invention, not an English invention. And I think 90 was the first. And by continuing to hop in 90 Minute at 90 IBUs and 9% alcohol, we also thought it'd be a great way for a name to also convey the intensity and strength of the beer. And a legend was born. 90 Minute was actually two years before 60 Minute. And people were like, oh, you guys are the one and done brewing company. No one's ever gonna drink a 9% IPA. And that was why our distributor's like, this is freaking great, but I can't get out of bed after a bottle. I've taken the four pack challenge on 90 Minute plenty of times. Well done, Pat. Yeah. One thing I will say was that it seems like there was this movement going. You were definitely unique in, I feel, doing that on the East Coast, but out in San Diego, I mean, in Cali in general, they were making these monster beers too, right? Yeah. I think somewhere as I was building a vibrating football machine, Vinny was accidentally double mashing a similarly higher ABV, higher hopped beer at the precursor of Russian River, and soon after that, stone- Yeah, stone ruin nation and Yeah. So it was a super fun era of really bringing intensity of flavor and ABV into the craft brewing movement to a degree that, and I got to give props to Sam Adams when you look at how early Triple Bach and that cobalt blue can was. I've got a bottle of 1997 Sam Adams Triple Bach in the basement still. That's awesome. Oh, it's going to be horrible. I had like a case that I found at some place up in McHenry County or something. And I used to bring a bottle. I used to go to Dark Lord Day and Surly Darkness Day every year for like a decade. And I always used to bring one of those with me and like walk up and down the line with it. Cause all these beer geeks would be like freaking out. Oh, I get to try it. And it was just vile. It was just a horrible umami bomb. He had to dip like sushi in it. Yeah, it was so soy saucy. The next one that Sam Adams did now, of course, Utopias is amazing. And we'll talk about a beer that has that DNA in it a little bit later. But there was a beautiful beer that Sam Adams did one year called Millennial, cause it was only for the year 2000. I remember that beer. I never tasted that beer. That was beautiful. Same, yeah. I remember the bottle. I mean, I saw talk on it on Beer Advocate, you know, way back in the day, but I never, never got to try that one. Yesterday was an amazing day without, you know, I was out with our co-workers yesterday and we got to go to Sheffields, we got to go to Map Room and see Laura, and then we ended at Hop Leaf and got to hang out with Mike, both Roger. Yeah, hitting the hits there. It was so cool. That's a great day. That's the OG Chicago beer tour right there. Yeah, three, yeah. Am I leaving any out when you think about the first gen beer bars? I was thinking Delilah's, the Rock and Roll Club, was pretty early with Good Craft Beer. Oh yeah. Was there, am I leaving any others out? Jake Melnick's maybe. I mean, I know it's more corporate, but it's been a stalwart downtown. Oh, Monk's Pub, I suppose, downtown deserves a mention. Quentcher's was big. Small Bar's closed. Well, Small Bar Division's closed. Quentcher's closed, right? Quentcher's is closed. That was one of the OG ones. But no, those places, like we were saying at Hop Leaf, I think that that, I think, represented to me something that's a bit absent in today's beer culture, was you would sit down at the Hop Leaf, and you might not know anything about any of the styles or any of the breweries, and you would just be excited to work your way through all that and go, what's a triple? I don't know, I'll try it. I feel like now the craft industry is just kind of, it's the biggest it's ever been, yet it's shrinking on itself in that we see so much IPA, so much stout, and a good amount of sour. But some of those other styles which you can still make your own and unique. I mean, Indian brown ale is one of my favorite. I was about to say, Roger wants more brown ale on tap. So you're the guy who wants more brown ale on tap. Yeah, there's three of them. Yeah, you've been getting his letters. Same penmanship, 100 different names. But I mean, so they get this wrap of like, oh, nobody likes brown ales. I always call them the Rodney Dangerfield of the beer industry. But I think assuming right out the gate, the young people just could never possibly like a brown ale. If you had made that assumption and decided that, then I never would have gotten to try it. I mean, I was 21 and decided it was a great beer. I mean, yeah, I'm weirdo in a lot of ways. But I still think that there's certain styles that brewers have been running away from, and it's been refreshing in the last couple of years that there's been a couple standouts of breweries that almost wear that as like a badge of honor, that they're not going to focus on IPA. They're like, we're not going to do IPAs, we're not going to do stouts. We want to do our take on whether it be loggers, other classic styles, Belgian stuff. Yeah, and let's talk about like the lower ABV and especially like the Lager, Pilsner, because before we do your story, Brownial reminded me, we have this brewer, Dogfish Dan Weber, and one of my biggest influences were Michael Jackson, not the one-glove freak, but the original journalist, the beer hunter, and Charlie Papazian, the father of the home brewing movement and the Brewers Association. And I had Charlie come brew with us like three or four years ago, and it happened to be, no, it was three years ago, and it happened to be when Dan Weber was so excited to brew a black IPA. This is three years ago. And so I have an awesome video of Charlie Papazian going, hey, Dan, 2001 called. They want their black IPA back. So from Charlie Papazian, like his hero, my... And we're really proud, we have a beer that we've just launched just on the two coasts, but if it goes well, hopefully it could someday make it here to Chicagoland with our friends at Patagonia, which is called a Kerns of Pills. And Kerns is this beautiful grain that, you know, sequesters hot, you know, carbon out of the atmosphere more than wheat or barley. But it also has this nice, dry spiciness that works so well in a simple pills and a recipe. Where's that grown? So it's actually was, it was developed and commercialized by the Land Institute, which is like a sciency nonprofit out of Kansas. But really, Yvonne and Berget and Patagonia team deserve credit for helping to scale it and commercialize it. I think the acreage is doubling annually. So it's a beautiful crop, but it is a great component in a simple pills and a recipe. So climate-wise, we grow it where we're growing corn then, most likely hotter areas. We can replace a lot of corn. It blows my mind that at this point in my life, I'm still discovering new food ingredients. There are fruits I've never had. I just discovered ramps. Oh, those are delicious. What the hell? I'm 40 years old. Why didn't somebody tell me this was a thing? Isn't that beautiful? Because it's a thing for three weeks a year. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. There's still a world of stuff to discover. When you go to Scotland and you have samphire, it's like ocean ramps. It feels like a threat. No, it gets harvested out of the ocean for three weeks a year in the spring. Samphire, S-A-M-P-H-I-R-E. We always go to Scotland in May on our casp buying trip. If you're anywhere on the west coast and you see a dish with samphire in it, that's trying to make some time for samphire. Yeah, does it grow in the same climate? It was where the peat is? It grows in the ocean. It's like a briny ramp. It's got this oniony character, but then a bit of brine, it's awesome. Where did you come across, Kernza? I mean, yours always seem like- Sorry, not to distract you from that. No, I love that. Do people ever give you guff that, Sam, can we just make a pilsner? Does it have to be weird? Does it have to have some grain no one's ever heard of? I mean, it's pretty amazing the way you find these things. How did you come across this? Yeah. And again, Patagonia Provision deserves the credit on that. And we've been fortunate to have a direct relationship for clothing with Dogfish and Patagonia doing unique stuff together for over a decade. So they reached out to us and said, we want to do a coast to coast beer. Frankly, they're like, the volume is important to us in growing it so that more acres are planted every year. In fact, the rallying cry of the beers drink up to draw down. So it lets any beer lover participate in addressing the climate crisis one pint or one six pack at a time. But it was they wanted to bring attention to it and were big fans of how Dogfish incorporates culinary ingredients into beers. So that was the start of it. But yeah, like I said, we don't try and copy what other breweries are doing. But we also, at least for distribution, we don't want to... You guys get inundated with 9,000 brands that want to be on your shelves. We don't want to bring something that you can get from another supplier. And so we're really trying to be thoughtful about what is the white space that Dogfish is bringing to you guys to say, this is why we'd love a shot on your shelves. The climate action beer space isn't exactly crowded right now. That's a good play. Not like fruit and sour. I also remember that you should be talking to us directly too at times because the distributors might not always want to carry a bunch of stuff. We often are glad to. Yeah. Well, let's talk about because Pilsners and Lagers, we as craft brew drinkers and makers have been loving Pilsners forever. It's often said in the wine world, it takes a lot of beer to make good wine. In the beer world, I think it's true to say, it takes a lot of Pilsner to make good IPAs. Most of the brewers are drinking the Pilsners while they're making. I was just going to say, you always ask a brewer what their favorite beer is and they're drinking a lager. Tell us, and it's great because I know Sam Lager sells well here in Chicagoland. What are other local lagers that are selling well and what do you think the challenge is to make consumers love the Pilsner and lager style to the degree that we as professionals love the Pilsner and lager style? I mean, that is the million-dollar question because people have craft brewers who have been trying lagers for years. I think the hardest of all the styles, lager-wise, to get the craft beer drinker interested in is Pilsner or Mexican lager. Because everyone thinks, oh, the whole world drinks those two styles. If only we could capture some of them and get them to come over to the craft side. I think you need to develop a beer palate to the point where you can pick up on the subtle nuances between an all malt Pilsner brewed at a bigger facility versus one that was done at a craft level. That's absolutely right. And you have to justify that step up in price and that step away from something familiar and comfortable, and that's a challenge. That's a great point because a lot of the world's biggest sort of industrial lagers have the word Pilsner on the label, so a consumer might associate, right? Yeah, that's a good point. I think the best success we've seen is when people make an effort to, again, I think education is the most important thing in beer. I think people unfortunately don't have the kind of voices that they used to with people like Michael Jackson. People just don't pick up a beer book and work their way through chapters. Everyone would be better off, like I just bought my nephew Garrett Oliver's Brewmaster Table. Work your way through the plethora of styles because right now, if you gravitate towards the internet and social media and people are looking at untapped and they're looking at Instagram, everything is photogenic driven, right? So one of the best things that ever happened is when people started pouring lagers on the Luger faucets and they were doing these slow pours with the huge creamy heads, like people started to go, oh my God, what's this? Do you follow Luger on Instagram? It's gorgeous. It's just every post is just like this awesome check pills. It's like foam porn. Yeah. Roger, here's my other theory. Everybody of our age seems like they grew up drinking American adjunct lager or macro lager. I think a lot of younger drinkers today are entering the beer category, not from that standpoint. Lager is actually challenging because it's weird and subtle and spicy and a little sour, little funky and weird. If you just have a delicious ale that's straightforward with fruit flavors, then it really is like training your palate to drink something more complex. Seems ironic to guys our age because it seems like a light and easy beer, but it's actually more of a grown up flavor. It's more of a complex flavor. I think there's more subtlety in the nuance certainly. Yeah. But there's also that kind of retro taste for us. It's like when I got tired of climbing Geek Mountain with all these wacky beers, you come back down the other side and you come back toward complexity and nuance. But if you start at the top beer drinking and you're starting with continuously hopped IPAs and- Or if you start with beer that tastes like juice, then you'd never challenge yourself to go beyond that. Yeah, that's true. I agree with everything you guys are saying and I'd also add that we also should be mindful that- My son graduated from college last week. He's 22. Graduation. I didn't do anything. He graduated. He's a beer geek whereas my daughter's really into canned cocktails and cocktails in general. But we got to remember that that generation grew up with Sierra Pail in their parents' fridge, with Goose Island in their parents' fridge, and you instinctively want to rebel against what your parents did, and would craft beer being essentially a 30-year phenomena, it means it's a little rebellious to go towards seltzers or cocktails. That's this generation's drink. That's like how they won't touch bottles. Right. My dad drinks bottles. Right. Everything's got to be in a can now. Yeah. But I think similarly what's exciting is a beer like a Pilsner or a Lager. Maybe I see younger people jamming on those. My son's a craft beer head and he loves the local Lagers and Pilsners. And maybe it's because we're the IPA generation. Because we had all IPA in our fridge. Well, you know what's funny is that so the pendulum started to swing so far the other direction with IPAs. I feel like in the late 90s, we had the like ICBU, IBU wars. It was like who can destroy your palate more? And Stone, I put on trial for that. I love Stone, but they were making beers that were just, they were for people who had acclimated their palates to like, I want tongue burner. Yeah. Like right. So then we swung so far the other way that then once dry hopping became such an emphasis and the New England style of IPA had, everyone always treats Heddy is like one of the typical examples of like one of the first New England styles. Heddy topper is still pretty bitter. Yeah, compared to some of the hazy stuff you get now, Heddy topper is like a balanced IPA. I mean, there's quite a few hazies now with zero hops added to the boil, so there's literally no bitterness to them. So, I think that part of the draw of some of these pilsners, like we love going to Art History in Geneva, and they actually brew the beers, the house beers at Hop Leaf, we were there last night. Their German pilsner, Bauhaus, is like a northern German style pils. It's super dry. And I think people don't realize it, some of the younger people that appeals to them, they like the bitterness. They might not even know how to articulate that, but it's so foreign to them, like if they've been drinking IPA's that have literally almost zero bitterness, it's so funny to say that. The refreshingness of that isn't just that it doesn't have oats or wheat in it like so many of the hazies, it has bitterness, which is so foreign to a lot of- Good old fashioned IBUs. Yeah. That's great. Isn't that exciting to see that going off? It is. I think it's super neat. And I think there's room for both. Like I'm not one of those people that, you know, I always get kind of stereotyped as railing on adjuncts, but I usually say if they're used in a thoughtful way, and I know I've noticed over the years that, you know, Dogfish really leans into that you We just did a 10th or 15th anniversary of our first 40 ounce malt liquor. Oh yeah, Liquor de Malt. Liquor de Malt, which is French for malt liquor. And we use these really beautiful gourmet corns, but we just did an Italian one using, you know, special heirloom corns that are in the colors of the Italian flag, and sold every single one with a hand-stamped paper bag around the 40 ounce can. But I also, you guys are on fire today. You know, Roger, you just said another great beer name, which is Railing on Adjuncts. That's a perfect dogfish head beer name, and you might have a pallet of that dropping at your store soon. That reminds me of talking about Pilsners. I think, too, another style that's pretty neat, that there's some renewed interest in, is the concept of an Italian style Pilsner. And I think, too, with that, again, heavy dry hopping, I think, how can we get, going back to your original question, how do we get people to care about loggers when they might not have failed in the past? I think IPL seems to have been another dad word, like can't have an IPL. True Joe and I were talking about, those are freaking great beers. Yeah. They're awesome, but for whatever reason, like nobody wants to talk about it. So, maybe dry hopped logger, California Pilsner, I know is a term that people are trying to coin right now. California Pilsner? Yeah. I didn't know that's a thing. Really heavily hopped loggers, especially like a lot of dry hopping, not necessarily even hazy, but. So, it's a Pilsner made by arrogant brewers on the West Coast. He's trying to get his BIU to find the style. That's what it sounds like. Well, it's no cold IPA, I'll give you that. Yeah, and part of me loves the fact that the younger, and here I am sounding like the guy who's head of brewery for 27 years, but that the younger generation is not being so precious about I.B.U.s or temperature ramping or whatever, but they're like, look at this cool 16 ounce artwork that blatantly knocked off Lucky Charms. It's so beautiful and cool. I want to put it on my Instagram, but at least they're drinking something made by a little Indy American drinker. Yeah, they're supporting small business, you know. It's a good thing. Despite their love for breakfast cereal flavored beer. Is it kind of weird for you to see this happen with the crit? Like what were some of the initial reactions to your approach to brewing? I mean, you took some flack, right? Yeah, like it's awesome to go visit little tasting room breweries now and you see a flight of pastry stouts or a flight of fruited sours. But when I go and meet the brewers and there's really good discussions, but I leave and I just like kind of smile and reminisce to the early beer festivals, Great American Beer Fest or a local one in Baltimore and I'd have like chicory stout and they'd be like, hey, asshole, you can't put chicory stout. That's not traditional and the shit we take. We now have a platform where we ask customers that come to us for the impressions of our beer and that informs where we go next. We're not trying to follow trends and something's going off in IRI data for me that's already a sign of, okay, some other breweries are going to lean into that and do on that. If I wish I kept my original analog version when we would get that feedback. So when we came out with Immortale 96, Maple Syrup, Vanilla Beans, and Oak Chip Age, the first comment card we got back was, tastes like wood but got me f***ed up. Dude's got a point. 11 percent alcohol. Then we did a beer called High Alpha Wheat where frankly, I did add a little too much lavender buds. The first comment card or one of the first was, tastes like tongue kissing Laura Ashley. I don't get that reference. She made perfume in the 80s or before your time. Sounds like my grandma's bathroom soaps. Exactly, potpourri. It was a potpourri beer. We took a lot of f*** for the stuff we did back then. It's so cool now to see literally of the 9,000-ish brewers, wouldn't you guess that 99 percent of them are brewing outside the Rhin Heights about bringing coloring ingredients at least into one of their beers? Chicory Stout sounds like the colon blow of the beer world. How do you mean that? Well, Chicory Root, they put it in Ballerina Tea, it's like Skinny Tea, but it just cleans you out. I didn't know that. I thought it was just like a coffee alternative. I don't know if it has that effect on you, gentlemen. Anyway, if you ever wanted to make a- No health claims on your beer, but if you wanted to bring one that gets your regular. Yeah, make this your regular beer. The cleanse stout. I got to think about bringing back Chickery Stout. Chickery Stout was great. We just opened up, I brought over an Immortale to your place recently. It was almost a decade old and still smoky, man. Smoky? It was amazing. Did it hold up character-wise? Yeah. Good. It did. We had a lot to drink that night. What's another Rare Bear bottle you opened that night that was special, that you guys felt it aged well? We drank a lot of whiskey that night. I opened a lot of old scotch that night. Nice. You went into your cellar. Those are beautiful nights. They are. The other thing I was going to ask you as far as pushing the envelope, we've got a pour here of 120. We have done so long without saying the words 120. It's been right here on the table by me this whole time. When's the last time you had 120? It was always one of those ones where I would buy one bottle a year and pretty much drink it immediately. I've never experimented with cellaring it, but I don't think I've had it in again probably like five years or so. What do you guys think of it? I love this so much. It is so intense. How strong is this now? So honestly, I don't do a good job of remembering which era had what ABV. So this would have been I think last years. We've had batches that have gone to 2021, but for simplicity of getting them out nationally where every state you have to register labels, we basically have been diluting them back with a little bit of water so we can hit a 17-ish, 18-ish ABV. So that's likely where this is. That's still ludicrously strong. Yeah, when I say diluting it back, it's like a gallon of water into massive volumes. Yeah. To hit the ABV. But it's one that we're proud, like Worldwide and 120 are strong beers that we do make more regularly than some others. Dilution in the beer world, though, is more common than you'd think. Roger, did I tell you about Guinness foreign extra stout yet? Did I tell you about this? Yes. This is the wildest way I've ever heard of beer bringing brewed. So I was in Ireland in April and we were visiting some distilleries. One of them is the Waterford Distillery, which is actually in an old Guinness plant in Waterford, Ireland. And this one Guinness plant brewed all of the Guinness foreign export stout for the world. The way they made it, they actually would brew the beer entirely, boil it off and distill it and concentrate it down to a non-alcoholic syrup. That syrup then gets shipped all over the world and gets reconstituted with water carbon dioxide and blank alcohol that's usually made from sorghum, not even malt. In some countries, it's made of malt. And because Guinness foreign exports stout has a different alcoholic strength depending on the market it's in. Like it's eight and a half, I think, in America. I think it's eight percent in the Caribbean. It's like nine and a half in africa or something. And so it gets recons... This weird syrup gets tankered all over the world and reconstituted with a neutral sorghum alcohol and water to the strength of the local market. And it's still beer. It's sold as beer. Can you imagine brewing on a scale where your accountants are like, if we do this, if we invest tens of millions of dollars in this process, we'll save a penny every bottle for the next 100 years. It sounds delicious. It's fucking crazy. And it's a delicious beer. But it's like I've ruined that beer for Roger when I told him that. Because that's one of those like hallowed old school beer nerd beers. And it's produced in the most fucked up way imaginable. Talking about Holy Trinity of beer bars, I named Sheffield Map Room and Hop Leaf. But I also got to stop with our coworkers yesterday at The Globe, which is an amazing soccer. And they had the dual Guinness tabs. And I do, there's, I don't know about you guys, but Guinness, I'm always rooting for Guinness. Because any brand of beer that can get to that scale with something that's opaque in a universe of light lagers, I'm rooting for it. But you're right. And it's so weird also that it actually overindexes in a lot of super warm countries. Super warm countries. And they drink it warm as hell too. Like you can't get a cold Guinness in Jamaica. Like it's just warm. So we're having now the Guinness of the Dogfish Portfolio, i.e. the only stout that we do regularly. And this is a really special worldwide, we wanted to share with you, because a bunch of our coworkers went up to our PA brewery to help our coworkers base their bottle off Utopius, which Binny's gets Utopius every year. And we're like helping to bottle off the Utopius, and we're like, what are you guys gonna do with these barrels? And we're done with them, like, I don't know, sell them for garden things. We're like, nah, and we loaded up our box trucks with them, brought them back to Coastal Delaware, and took that year's worldwide. The smell is incredible. It smells spicy and fruity. And added, basically aged the worldwide on the used Utopius barrels. That's what you guys are trying now. That's awesome. It is so good. A lot of vanilla, what do you guys get for notes? There's so much going on in there. The baking spice, the fig, and the plum. There's a lactone-y toasted oak thing going on too. It's more than just vanilla, like there's a bit of coconut and stuff. There's a pear and cherry brandy character. It's like that almond pit, like a creme de noyau thing, like this weird marzipan kind of thing. I mean, that's not a flavor in America, but that fruited dessert-like almond, almost a bit of a nuttiness. There's some cherry in that flavor too. Yeah, for sure. That cherry pit, almond pit is like the same family of flavor and aroma. It's like the chocolate candies that have the almondy nougat studded with nuts and cherries. The cream, like the white-ish, the white-ish ones. Those are gross candies. Those are big in the Italian Christmas stocking. I remember getting those gross. It's Panettone-style. Wait a minute, with a name like Calagione, he's Italian? Yeah. I was a huge fan after trying this, much to the chagrin of our friends at Sam Adams. I almost like drinking this more than Utopius, because it has more of a beer character. Utopius is a beast in its own way. It's one of the most unique beverages out there, but it almost transforms then into a spirit, with a little more body. I love it, and a outside fireplace, snifter winter is Utopius, whereas to me, this is more fall and spring. Or the early stages of summer in an air-conditioned conference room. Yeah, this is exactly the aesthetic we want. Let's get a snapshot of this for our billboards. Five dudes with earphones on. It's great with earphones. Six dudes with earphones on. But yeah, super proud of the Worldwide, and it's bulletproof in age. And that's really also 99 when we brewed this at first, what's got us soon after that, I was like, okay, we've found, we've helped to identify certain yeast that are like sadomasochist and can live in high alcohol environments. But I was kind of, it felt like being like Sam Shepard in the movie, The Right Stuff, where he decided not to go to the space. He wanted to stay in a regular airplane, but go as high as he could. And that's kind of what we try to do with Worldwide. But then I was going to take my box truck home from delivering beer in Baltimore. I went by a scrap metal yard where we got a lot of our equipment to grow dogfish. Called my wife and like, do we have enough money to make payroll this week? And I was like, yeah, I was like, I'm going to stop at the scrap yard then, which is kind of how we grew dogfish. If we could make payroll, I'd get a new piece of used equipment. And there was a piece of equipment in that scrap yard that was the exact geometry of a pot still. And so we bought this cone of stainless that must have came from the pharmaceutical or poultry industry, which is big on the Delmarva Peninsula. And then we just wrapped, we created our own steam jacket and then we welded two kegs vertically. Wait a minute. You made a beer making vessel out of a turkey funnel? I think so, yeah. Yes, I think we did. Or it might have been like a grain, like a weird food grain. No, that's how they ejected all the dead turkeys out of the big industrial farm, like into the pit on the side of it. Yeah. And so we built a 150-gallon pot still out of a used piece of scrap metal. And then the condensing coils we put into two vertical kegs that we welded together. So the coils will go through the kegs and recondense the gins, rums, and vodka. And that's how we open. So, Dogfish is decidedly... That's the world's most inefficient still. Yeah. Are you... You're talking about the world's most inefficient binnary. Are we past the statute of limitations for this, what, illicit alcohol still? Is that... Is it okay to talk about this? So we opened our craft distillery over two decades ago. And we've been... So we've launched our canned cocktails and we're super... And we can share some of these recipes with you. We just got double gold at the San Francisco Spirits Award. But we started making gin, rum, vodka, whiskey eventually on a piece of scrap metal that we welded together. And we put it in our restaurant over the wood grill in our kitchen. So stupid. It's like smoking cigarettes while you're having a gas take in your hand. Hey, Greg jumping in here. So we tasted these five great beers with Sam, and we talked a lot of insider beer talk. And right about here, the marketing suits in the corner pulled out the canned cocktails. So we're not gonna tell them to stop. I think we're gonna make this one into a two-parter. We'll be back next week with way more. It's actually really good, you're gonna love it. So yeah, we'll see you next time. Hey, Greg, Barrel to Bottle, thanks for listening. We're picking up part two from last week. Sam Calagione tasted us out a bunch of really good beers. We talked a lot of beer insider stuff. Go back and listen to it if you haven't, but of course you have. And this is part two. We keep going, it gets really good. So yeah, thanks. And we talk about figs. And Pat's in this intro for some reason. All right, well, here's the show. Like no other canned cocktail company has been working on the recipes for two decades. And so we're really, really proud of these, and we're glad Binny's is carrying our canned cocktails. And we're really proud that the spirits in them and the tinctures of real fruit in them were developed over 20 years of trial and error on these recipes. That's worth mentioning because it's such a busy segment right now. There's so many different cocktail inspired things. Some of them are malt based, some are sugar brews. It's important to note that these are canned cocktails made with distilled spirits. Yeah. Yeah. And for our brand Dogfish, that's where it started for us and said it's going to be made using real fruit. It's going to be made where we do these tinctures through our real spirits. Where do you guys see this style going and how does it interface with the beer drinker today? Typical of any category, we've seen the large multinational players and just a race to the bottom with price, but we've still seen local more premiumization with Big Star, pretty famous bar here in Chicago. It's a taco bar, right? Yeah. They have some canned margaritas and Palomas that are on the high side price point wise, but because they have a history there with those cocktails and it really resonates with the local customer here. Yeah. What do you think, Roger? It definitely is one of those things where I think no one really anticipated what seltzer would do, and that really threw a wrench in things as far as trying to identify who the seltzer drinker was. I think for so long, there was this silly stereotype of there were things like wine coolers, there were FMBs, they were hard lemonades. Too often, it was considered like, this is a category dominated by women. Women drink these, not men. I think with seltzer, we finally shed caring about that and we were like, everyone drinks seltzer. It's not just like, it's like in the old beer days where you brewed a fruit beer and it was like, that one's for the ladies. Like, come on. So now it's like- Yeah, it was gross. It's hard not to find a beer without fruit in it these days. I think with the cocktail, canned cocktail segment, it's not like, oh, our beer drinker's drinking these. It's just everybody is drinking them. And I think the quality, it's taken some people time to realize that you can get something that's pre-made, that's worth drinking. And it's not just... Okay, so just flavor blasts, we like to joke like it's not... There's still a lot of producers that need to learn that lesson too. Yeah. And then we get some great stuff, and then we still get pitched like everybody is coming out with this. Every spring, well, winter, I sit down with all the rest of the spirits buying team, and we tell anybody who's looking to get canned cocktails, and now get them to us by February. Yeah. And then we taste them all at once, and we pick winners and losers. I always want to record it, but they're like, don't, because we're going to shit on most of them. Yeah. But I have pictures, and literally we stand around in this conference room, and there's like five of us, and we'll taste like 90 different canned cocktails. But that probably makes you be as honest and harsh as you have to be proportionate to your square footage of shelves. Right. It's just the reality of the situation. It's exploding as a category, but that makes it increasingly comfortable. Like you mentioned the sales figures, as much as sales on this segment are growing, the amount of skews are growing three times as fast. We have to take a very judicious hand with it, and it's got to be stuff that we can get consistently at a consistent value to our customers that's going to add something to the shopping experience in our stores. We're on tape a few years ago doing our first Canned Cocktail episode, and at the time, your rubric was, if you were at a bar and you ordered a cocktail, you were served this, would you order another one? I don't know that that's still the rubric because we now have such an established category. That's true. That we can judge within the category instead of against something else. But still, it's a very broad category still, and it ranges from 25% actual reconstructions of cocktails you get at a bar, all the way to seltzer by a different name. And really finding the sweet spot in the middle there is key. Right. So seltzer by a different name, some of the leaders literally have seltzer in the name of the spirit's Cocktail, which is in part why it's such a confusing category for us. They live in High Noon. By far the number one is a spirit's Seltzer. And more of a seltzer proposition than true. With ours, we want to be super clear, which is two foolproof shots in every can, culinary crafted. We purposely decanted these in the glasses. Sorry, did you say two foolproof shots in every can? Yeah. If there wasn't a table between us, I would hug you. So as you try them and look at the difference in the color, you can see- The only thing he likes more than 17% alcohol IPAs. Seven proof real cocktails in a can. But when you look at the diversity of color from the blood oranges in the paler one to the blueberries. I think we skipped over. Let's say what we're drinking here. So the first cocktail we poured was our Vodka Crush, which is made with blood oranges and mangoes. And Crush is a drink style cocktail that's kind of big on the East Coast, where you crush a citrus fruit with a press right at the point of making it. And so we wanted to have that real fruit like jam, jam, you know, citrusy impression. Crushable! It's so crushable. So we named it after your first podcast. It's an homage to you guys. And the thing with us, and you mentioned you tried like 90 in one sitting. And for us, over 20 years, we've said, we've got the recipes now that we want to launch with, because we wanted drinks that impressed you on the first sip, impressed you on the... If you'd pick up the second one I gave you guys was our blueberry shrub vodka soda made with real balsamic vinegar. And you can see from the balsamic vinegar. Drinking vinegars. The scratch made cocktail starts with the greenhouse blueberry shrub, a blend of fresh blueberries and blueberry juice. A splash of sweetened balsamic and red wine vinegar that's macerated with the vodka. If you like Negronis, but you want to take it easy, this is the one for you. Yeah. So this one's my favorite and won the LA spirits Award Best Canned Cocktail recently. But when you try each of them, we're like we want them to be super unique from each other, but we want them each to be an experience where it starts with real fruit aromatics, complexity of taste, but it ends dry with some acidity, so you want to finish the 12 ounces. When I try a lot of the other canned cocktails, there's some great ones out there, but the ones that, as you said, the majority of them, they're like, yup, smells like the strawberry flavoring they wanted to. Sip it, yeah, that's sweet up front, but it's not necessarily something you want to have crack open a second can of. Whenever somebody says a fruit, but they follow it with the words Jolly Rancher. Yeah. Really, you just made it the flavor that it says on the can. Good work. They're difficult to write about, and I will say that this shrub one, you could actually dissect this and give it a nice write up. There's a lot of little intricate notes. There's a minty quality and an herbal quality in there too. Colonial era style refreshment for the modern day drinker. Yeah, that's what the kids are clamoring for. I mean, it's pretty brilliant to add. We're going to make stone fences next. To add a little bit of that vinegar to it, I think is what's making it that perfect. Sweetness and acidity is the most irresistible flavor combination. It just makes you want to keep drinking it and drink more. Yeah, we're really proud of these, and we're really just starting to launch them in Chicagoland and Binny's now. For us, a big breakthrough was recognizing that we needed to get a pack where one person could spend one amount of money and get four different experiences. We have our bar cart which has eight cans in it. Here's where I'm going to throw a pie. What are these, four packs, six packs, mixed eight pack? Four and eight, yeah. It's like $14 a four pack, right? Well, it's about $19.99 an eight pack. We were able to figure out that's the best we could do with these kinds of ingredients and to almost twice as strong as a high noon. The high noon, yeah, is really leading the category with- That's close to what an eight pack of high noon costs. It's way more interesting than high noon. Yeah. High noon is good, but you're right though, there's a lot more going on in these. It's like a spritz. Yeah. Well, I don't know that word. I think when you were asking what's the longevity of these and what's the peel, I think people are starting to realize that the ones that are made with some real fruit, that makes a huge difference, especially in the seltzer segment. You mean customers when they buy a second one, they don't buy a mistake the first time or twice. Right. I mean, if you really are thinking about what's exceptional, what's something that you're going to remember the name, I think from the seltzer standpoint especially, it's always the seltzers that use real fruit that stand out to me. We got way too preoccupied with this, like everything has to be 100 calories, no carb nonsense, that a lot of these companies would drop the alcohol down a little bit, they basically still hit, they'd be 115 calories. So, okay, you're worried about 15 calories, I doubt it. Don't have two more potato chips, right? Yeah, exactly. Don't have a mint. I'm really, again, how excited can you get to write about extracts? It's like, this company really nailed their chemicals. Really tastes like banana. They really picked out the best extracts that were available from Big Science. So, I always think at the end of the day, using the real fruit and real ingredients is what really matters. Then try this. So, the next one, the next, and this will be the last, I think, of what we'll try, which is, and I want to ask you this, and I know you've got a huge spirits background, and because let's face it, there's a reason so many of Cancacos are leaning into vodka, because it is so approachable, relatively neutral, whether you use it as a building block for real ingredients as we do, or for factory flavors like you mentioned, some others do. But for this one, we've been making hop-infused gins at our distillery for over 20 years, and different ratios of real citrus fruit in the botanical mix. But with this one, the breakthrough moment wasn't... So now we're drinking the lemon and lime gin crush, Dogfish Head's lemon and lime. Gin crush, lemon and lime. Yeah. And so the lemon and lime are obviously critical in the sensory experience, but actually in the same way that balsamic vinegar is in the background of the blueberry shrub vodka, in this one, it's actually basil. So there's a touch of basil behind the botanicals, behind the juniper berries in the gin crush. It doesn't have the caramely darkness of a Pimm's Cup, but similar Pimm's Cup flavors, some floral, some very bright citrus aromatics, obviously. Yep, tons of floral. It's really, really interesting. Yeah, and those two of my favorite, the gin crush and the blueberry shrub vodka soda, but we intentionally want that variety pack to have a pretty broad expression of flavors. Like that first one, we had the vodka lemonade with the honey berries and strawberries is probably closer to the seltzer drinking experience of the four of ours. It's a little sweeter, but they all end dry, they all end with acidity so that you want to make that sound, crack open another can. Yeah, these are good. Does anybody ever tell you that their fridge is full of the leftover pineapples from the mix pack? Is that the one that's the style? I said mango once, but Roger was like, actually, that one sells great. You just did the international sign for dork. Yes, I did. I did. I pushed up the fridge. He doesn't even wear glasses, but I did. No, I should say numbers wonk. That always blows our mind, and I've seen it at friends' houses. If people have a garage refrigerator, it's like the island of misfit seltzers. People bring the variety packs, and they're like, I don't like this one. Greg saw my refrigerator last week. It was Vermouth and Alicernova Salus. And a whole bunch of old Fezzi wigs. What was in your fridge? He has a bottle of Alicernova Salus in his garage fridge. What the hell? It's good living. Like the most bitter Amaro you can find. Yeah. I think Roger described that one as forest service bathroom floor. That'd be a good incense. It's terrific, though. It's very good. Yeah. That'd be good out in a bowl while you're doing naked yoga. It has no uses outside of purely just like gut-wrenching, bitterness, digestion. Gross out your friends. Yeah. That's really good, though. But I am in the backyard of Mallort, which is a very polarizing liquid, right? Yeah. Well, you got a room full of Mallort fans minus one. Okay. Okay. Okay. You guys hang with it? Unde burger bust for me. When you were talking about the crush being a phenomenon out east, something I've always wondered, I've been telling a couple brewers out here that they should, I went to school out in Massachusetts, and I went to a bar where they had one of those old-timey citrus presses. It makes you want to order a drink, because you're like, wow, look at that. Theater. Pretty cool, yeah, exactly, theater. But the freshness, you see literally the oils jumping out of the grapefruit. Loves expressing the oils. So, is anybody doing that as an option into beers? Like, point of service? Yeah, actually, the Dogfish's Summer Art Series is a mango and mandarin crush beer, where we're taking 20 years of making these cocktails with crushes and the way we do on Coastal Delaware style. But we're bringing into a beer that we're also intentionally, like 15% of the fermentable sugars in that beer is from not from Barley, is actually from pure cane sugar. So that is fully fermentable. So it makes the drinking experience like exact hybrid between a craft beer and a cocktail. So it's a crush beer, because it's essentially brewed with one fifth pre-distilled rum, i.e. we fermented cane sugar and dosed it in with the regular Barley beer. Suits in the corner. Is this beer coming to Chicago? It's here, guys. And no one has suits on. Let the record show none of us have suits on. You have the most casual suits I've ever seen. It's literally the antithesis of a suit is a Hawaiian shirt. He's wearing a Hawaiian shirt. No, I was actually wondering if you're actually if you have it at the bar and you're squeezing it into a beer. We are. And we just did a really fun bocce tournament. We got to bring the one back. We used to do one in the Whole Foods roof here in Chicago years ago. And we got to bring the Chicago one back. But we just did one with our distributors out in California. And the winning four team of bocce players got commercial grade crushing machines. Oh, that's awesome. The whole time we were playing, we were putting a half citrus fruit into our crushed beers and our crushed cocktails. And they were just like, holy s**t. So I do think this crush concept is something that could really, you know, accelerate in the world of cocktails and beer for that matter. One little plug I want to give Sam, when you said bocce reminded me of a video you made where you were saying that you wanted to give a bid to the Olympic Committee to make bocce a- Make bocce a- To all our listeners, if you haven't watched Sam's snippet videos, they're really well put together. And they, you really like delve into why what you're making is different and well thought out in a very succinct, especially in our culture now where people want, you know, short and sweet. You know, right now, I mean, they're like short videos. Reminder listeners, we're on TikTok now, at Binny's Bev. At Binny's Bev, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Super young guys. What do you see is the future for Dogfish? What's something that you guys are working on as far as besides, obviously, we have a room full of innovation here with all these really exceptional craft cocktails. But going back to the beer side, what lies in the head that you can maybe? From the notes I've taken just during our call, we'll be coming out with a beer made with Sam fire. We call it Railing Against Adjuncts. So look for that in the Binny's 50 case display coming soon. I would just say something I'm excited about, and this is a Chicagoland company, is the Numero Group, which is an amazing record label. It's something you'd have to come to Delaware. We do this event called Analog-a-Go-Go. first week in November, where we invite some of our favorite indie record stores to set up booths at Dogfish next to booths of our more experimental beers and cocktails. We flip through vinyl and drink liquids together. This year, Dogfish and Numero Group are doing a collaboration, where we picked the playlist for each side of the vinyl album first, and then challenged our brewer in Milton and our brewer in Rehoboth to listen to that playlist and come up with a beer recipe idea. Then it'll get released as a vinyl album in a wooden crate with the two floor packs of each of the beers. There's something, I'm sorry, we won't be getting to Binny's, but it's an example of something that we hope your listeners would come to Coastal Delaware for us to find. That's cool. One that I think we're really, really excited about is the return of SeaQuench on draft this summer season in Chicagoland and getting in that cab for the first time in four years to come to your city which is one of my favorite in the world. The first time I visited Chicago, I remember I'm from DC Baltimore Philly area. I was like, stop fucking talking to me. I don't know you. Why are you saying hi to me? I'm walking down the road, why do you say that? I don't know you. I was just like, I called my wife and I was just like, this is the nicest big city in America. Coming by your beaches and watching people starting to play volleyball, I'm just like, and we finally got sequence back on draft and six packs at all your stores. That's what I'm really excited about this summer is drinking that sequence. Chicago, everybody's nice until they're driving. Yeah. Good bumper sticker. All right. So, a couple of real quick questions. We talked a lot about your unique approach to ingredients and you've used some of those strangest adjuncts that I've seen. I mean, you made a beer with Scrapple. Yeah, that's gross. The stuff that is not legally allowed to go into hot dogs. Yeah. That's right. It's worse than Lips and F***les. Worst. Like worst. Worst, right? W-R. Have you ever had Ghetto? It's like the Cincinnati version of Scrapple. It's delicious. No. Why are we doing this? It's like the Haggis of Cincinnati. It's most similar to the Haggis in my experience. All right. Sorry, Roger. Haggis of Cincinnati. I got to try it. But you question it. Yeah. It's like going on pasta. Pennsylvania Tuxedo with Spruce Stips. Great story. The stories behind your beers really are just, they're amazing. What are some of the beers that stick out in your mind as far as like, were there any adjuncts or it was just like, this didn't work? Good. He's going to say the Cheecha. Oh, we did brew beer with human saliva, Cheecha. You're right, Pat. We actually like that one. Bring on the Scrabble. We brew Cheecha every three years because that's how long it takes us to forget how painful it is to chew hundreds of pounds of corn, which is what we as a collective of coworkers have to do. It gets boiled. Come on. It does get boiled. We say it's boiled, it's sterile. If you don't want to drink it, fine, but spit happens. But I'd say a couple of fun ones for me that didn't work, but I thought the liquid was actually really good, and I racial profiled myself when I lobbied to get Bocci to be an Olympics one. Similarly, when I brewed a beer with my friends, the Italian owners of Eataly, and I know you have an Eataly here in Chicago, but Nicola Fernandes, the family that owns it back in, but he owns American ones too. I wanted to brew a beer called Garlic Breath, B-R-E-A-D-T-H, where we added fermented black cracked garlic at every stage, the breadth of production. So in the hot side, fermentation and aging. So we did a real roasty porter called Garlic Breath, where literally the smell of garlic was coming out of every pore in your body after. It was the perfect partner for just like spaghetti and meatballs. It did not sell well. That one. Yeah. Another super fun one, because you guys will like this, because this is a big Irish bar town. We have a huge pizza chain in Delaware called Grotto's Pizza. And they're like, we need a green beer for St. Patrick's Day at all of our locations. And this is back in like 98 when all of our locations for Dogfish meant we could make payroll if we made them their f***ing green beer. And so we have, we don't brew with fake ingredients or coloring. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? So we deliver the kegs to all the Grotto's locations and they like called us and the guy goes, ah, this beer looks good, but it tastes like pond scum. I'm like, well, that's because we brewed it with blue green algae. I just discovered this. It's very good. The blue green algae. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does taste kind of funky, but it's wonderful for you. Very good for your mind. Yeah, very good for you. Try to tell the pizza eaters in Delaware that their green beer tastes like pond scum. Well, yeah, you got to know your audience. It's very protein rich for the vegetarians. See? Yeah. This guy's a wellness expert over here. I got to do a conversation. He just looks liberal. Oh, damn. Are you done with your weird theoretical questions or do you have more? Do you have one more? I have one. I have to ask. I wanted to know if you're still using your Palo Santo tanks. That was one of mine too. Awesome question. We were talking about the trends in the beer world. While we love drinking Cantillon, we were at Hop Leaf last night and Bobo from Chamei was out with us. That was so cool. Those beers are beautiful beers. But for volume sales, if you're going to bring something into distribution, we have to provide things that are going to sell well for you guys and our customers. We can dose in things like Worldwide Utopias 120 that are meant for folks to age and cherish and hold on to. But Paula is a great example of a beer that we had to say, hey, for national distribution, we have to take a break from selling that beer. The tanks, we have them. They're actually filled with us a water blend to make sure we can use them in the future. We're talking about- So they're big tanks, right? They're 300 barrels, so they hold almost 4,000 gallons of beer. So the other thing we are doing is toasting barley using some chunks, not from the tank, but extra ones we had to repair them, and also looking at opportunities to bring Paolo the wood experience into our spirits line, our full proof. Interesting. Our proof, full proof. We just did a whiskey called Let's Get Lost that got a 92 score in Whiskey Advocate. I'm sorry that we don't have our whiskeys with you guys yet, but the whiskey production is tiny for us. But we think the Paolo Santo wood in the world of whiskey could be really interesting. We're already- I know it was such an expense and on a journey to get those tanks, so I'm glad they're still going to have some life. I think they're going to go towards our- I still think too the beer industry is so much different than when you started. I mean, new beers come out now, it's almost to the detriment of brewers. They're expected to make a new beer literally every other week. Some of the nano guys are cranking out a new beer every other week. New beer, just another cool label. Well, that's either here nor there, but- You guys are going to see the look on his face as he said that. It's the same IPA with a different label. Sometimes it is, but not always. I think what's different now is that you used to have seasonal portfolios, or it'd be like, okay, well, there's going to be this time period where you do this beer for three months, it's available to the market, and it might be multiple drops to keep your distribution network full. But we live in the world of the one-off now, to the point where I think if you sprinkle some of these batches, it's like it's one and done. If anything, that makes it even better because then it's hard to get. Does it make it better for you guys as the place that people go to for an amazing beer selection? Do you like the current ratio of full-on quarterly seasonals on your shelves versus one-offs? I know the customer always decides, but what's your view of that? I think especially with portfolios like yours, where you've brewed all these iconic beers over the years, would it be great to have a beer available year-round? It might just not work anymore. We're paralyzed by choice. There's too many options. Would we need it for a three-month period? Maybe. Do people go back and buy a second version, a second one? Do a throwback series where you bring back four different recipes a year in lieu of seasonal stuff or something one year. That would be pretty cool. Yeah. We've talked about that. We've noticed things like we kind of convinced Anchor begrudgingly, it took quite a bit of twisting their arm to give us a drop of old Foghorn. It was a small drop, but it's such an iconic beer and it's sold well. The 12 ounce bottles sold as singles mostly? Six packs. Yeah, that's awesome. He's been holding off on doing the- Six packs of English style barley wine. Yeah. He's been holding off on doing the barley wine episode and now we're in summer, and we finally got it, so we have to record the barley wine episode in the middle of summer. Can't you air it in the fall? I guess, and then we'll be out of this stuff. But I guess what I'm getting at is that there's an opportunity because instead of looking at the bad of that, brewers are expected to brew a new beer every other day, and to your point, a lot of times it isn't really a new beer. I think what brewers have started to notice, Stone's doing a good job of this. They have fan-sourced voting. They go, you voted, we re-brewed. It's a one-time drop. It's in and out. Boom. If you get it into the hands of people that have supported you for years, you get an opportunity to share it with the new generation that may have never tasted it. But you don't have to worry about the distributors complaining about that it's a new skew, that it's something they need to sell in. I think that that is something we've seen breweries pivoting and had some success with. Yeah. I like that idea. How we do that is we built a tiny canning line that makes four pallets of beer over the course of a whole day of canning, and you have to come to the locations, and that's where we'll do a Pennsylvania tuxedo. That's super hard because we have to go find the spruce tips literally the week that they come out of the trees. Beers like that, the people are, we will listen and we have 1.2 million followers on Dogfish Social, and we listen to what liquids people ask us to bring them back, and then we bring them back in this 16 ounce local small canning line, and then we That already, yeah, agreed. All right, you keep saying the word listen. So, hear me out. And if this sounds crazy, just tell me it's crazy. I like the direction it's going. I like that preface. We did this episode, it was a music and wine episode. And it was a little bit about pairing, but it was also a little about my f***ed up synesthesia in my brain that doesn't work, right? I don't know the word, tell me the word in synesthesia. Synesthesia is when you experience senses. We have five senses, right? But they bleed into each other. So, you know, colors might elicit a physical feeling or sounds, a physical sensation. You might be thinking you're tasting something, but you're smelling it. I've been doing acid with Bill Walton again. Okay. So, both literally and metaphorically, Pat Duck did, Roger was a sport, he hung out. I was in jazz band in high school and the director of jazz band was like, we're going to create a pyramid of sound, right? The trumpets and the clarinets and the flute at the high end and the cymbals, is the peak of the pyramid and down at the bottom is the bass, the kick drum and the snare drum are kind of the skeleton. Then the trombones are filling out the middle and the saxophones are up here, and then the alto saxes and the whole thing creates like a shape. Visual of sound. Yeah. Well, I taste that way too. Wine works because it has acidity and has the searing highs and then it has the fleshy fruit and it has the barrel, cocoa, and vanilla. Tannic tri. The tannin is the skeleton of the thing. You ever think about that in terms of beer? Because a lot of your beers that you're producing have the kind of complexity that aren't the one dimensional, here's a hop, here's the notes of the hop, here's the grain, that's the punch, but they have these other grace notes, these other Yeah. That's exactly the exercise we used to come up with Slightly Mighty, which was when you think of the juggernaut that is light lager still, and it's interesting to watch, we were chatting a day about the domestic light lagers. We got to give them props. There's a pricing threshold and right now, a lot of customers are like, you know what, that X light beer from that X Global Brewery isn't so bad. Yeah. So with us, we're like, but the challenge with them is they have no body. Generally, this is my sensory perception, and that's why it's watery, it doesn't have body. So we said, how can we make a beer? Frankly, the challenge we gave ourselves was, let's make a beer that has the exact same calorie, the same calorie count of McUltra. And while ABI is a competitor to us, I give them props for creating that category, and Ultra is a pretty amazing success story, I think, for a global brewery. So we challenged ourselves, let's make a beer that has the same calorie count per ounce as McUltra, but let's make it have, taste like a real IPA. And so the idea was, let's use monk fruit to create a skeleton of a body in a beer where usually they don't have any body, the light beers that are that calorie count. So the skeleton was a monk fruit, and then we packed a real hot musculature on top of that. Just build around it, yeah. On top of the monk fruit that gave it the body, so it tastes like a full-flavored IPA, but there's this essentially phantom body in there that is that monk fruit base. Right. Why do I keep harping on it? Here's why, because we all, especially in wine. Because I thought you were going to go into drag, we're the official brewery record store today, I know you're a record head. Well, you're a music guy. Yeah, but I thought you were going to say we should do a music and beer episode. We should do a music and beer episode. Let's commit verbally, verbally contract that next April, record store day, let's have Dogfish and Binny's do some program around record store day and do a whole episode of music and beer. Yes. It's been a minute since you've done, I mean, I remember like Hellhound on My Ale and- Robert Johnson. Bitch's Brew, I mean- Dragons and Yum Yums, which we did with Flaming Lips was a fun one, so let's do something next year on that. The unnamed Johnny Cash wearing Groucho Marx glasses. You can't prove that was Johnny Cash. You can't prove it in a court of law. I was out with that artist last night, a Chicago-based artist, Johnny Langford from the Waco Brothers, was out drinking with Roger and I, and he painted that logo for us. I have a question on the spirits. Where are you getting the neutral spirit that is becoming the vodka and gin, and what grain is it being distilled from? So come visit us in Coastal Delaware, whether it's our Let's Get Lost whiskey, or the vodka in these canned cocktails. You can come and watch our vodka. We do a distiller's tourie. You have a regular brewery tour, you can go do a distiller's tour, and you can see, and that head frame still, and the pot still that we use are now running like- Are you on it from head frame up in Montana? Yeah, they built their still. They own a distiller, but they also build stills. He was in industrial rectifying alcohol still business before, and then he like, what's his name? Good ****, man. I met him a bunch of time because we sell some head frame stuff. I first met him probably, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago or something, but when he was just opening the stiller, but he's an engineer and he was essentially like, he's making these industrial use stills, and he's like, I know that I can make these For whiskeys. It can make good spirit out of it. That's interesting that you have one of those. If you come visit us, we have pot stills, we have a head frame still, and you can see our spirits going through these spicing baskets that we designed ourselves, filled with blueberries, with malt vinegar, balsamic vinegar. But we don't have slim canning capacity in Coastal Delaware, which is why our beers are in the squat can. So after we make the spirit with the real fruit, we truck it out to get it canned. Really? So they're not all the alcohol is distilled at your place in Delaware? Yeah, we make the alcohol in Delaware and the fruits and herbs and spices and basil, the balsamic vinegar. That's really refreshing here. I mean, you see contract canning facilities and you assume, like any seltzer brand or something, they're getting tankered in GNS from some ridiculous plant in Minnesota or Kansas or something. As Roger was saying, most of Dogfish's marketing is our social media or YouTube or- What's going on over here, Roger? Your TV show. Instagram and books. I'm leaving you guys our newest book as a gift, but we're pretty analog and social with our marketing. But to your point, Pat, we are starting to shoot some little videos that we're going to put on to our social that just show how we're making our canned cocktail spirits. We should share them on our TikTok. In Coastal Delaware. Right on. We're so new. We've been on TikTok for a month or something. We have 71 followers as of today. I got to say, I feel like I just stepped into a Turkish street fair. Roger's over there weaving tapestries, selling incense. What's going on over there? That's the best way to describe a literal Tupperware full of dates that you could possibly come up with. I was trying to evoke an image that was a little more romantic than that. Yeah, the plastic thing that you put your leftover macaroni and cheese in, Roger brought one with dates. What do you got going on? Dates and figs. I know what's going on. I wanted to share a beer with you, Sam. Yeah, wow. One of my absolute favorites. I haven't had this in years. I'm psyched. A bottle of old school barley wine turns a decade old in October. Is there any left I can share with- Yeah, it works for everybody. Everybody's got one. Suits. Who has a fucking suit? Look at me. It's a generic term for a marketing slag. Marketing slag. It's nicer than slag. Dates and figs. Did you ever take your own packaging advice and bury old school barley wine in the backyard? Yes. I did too. Did you? It was on one of those four pack challenge nights, and it took me a while to find the spot a year later. But we did bury it and then dig it up a year later. You bury it low on the frost line so it never freezes. Yeah. I put it in a plastic bag too, just because I was like, I guess we should put it. It's smart for the label. But it worked out fine. There are pits in the dates. The listener is playing along at home. We now have this beautiful hand thrown pottery bowls next to us. first of all, Sam's lying. Second of all, you're doing my job, man. It's like the only thing I do is look pretty and describe things happening. So Roger brought us some shriveled up fruit. So Sam, tell us the story behind for the listeners who aren't familiar. Yeah. So in the late 90s, when I go to beer festivals with Aprahop, a fruited IPA in 96 or Chickery Stout, you know, Immort. Beer is still strong as hell after a decade. It's doing fine. But people would yell at me or make fun of me for putting weird things in beer. So I started going, there's a website, I don't know if it's still there called Alibrius. And I was an English major, I love reading. And this was a site that had rare books. And even though we were pretty much broke, I would search historic brewing books and try to bring back ancient beer styles to remind people, hey, don't make fun of us for putting this stuff in beer. Actually, long before the Rhyton Heights, about every region of the world was making beers with their local indigenous ingredients. And I once spent way too much money and it said, it was a journal of like a 19th century English cellarman. Because back in the day, breweries like Bass and Stuff would have these tanker trucks and they would tinker the cast condition hand-pulled beer into the cellars of these pubs, and it would be at the temperature sold at the cellar. And so I thought I'd bought a book by a 19th century English cellarman, and this thin envelope shows up at my house, and it's a 14-page handwritten journal. But it was by a 19th century English cellarman. And his job was to go around, they were called Grundy Tanks, essentially seven-barrel or 200-gallon tanks that were in the cellars of these pubs. And sometimes they get a stuck fermentation. Cask beer is naturally carbonated, the yeast is working in the vessel you're serving it from. And if a beer got flat, he would go around to pubs and lower bags, string bags filled with dates and figs into the beer to get the yeast to come back to life and eat the sugars in that, and then they recarbonate the beer. And so I read this guy's story, and I'm like, I need to brew a beer brewed with dates and figs. And I was driving my box truck home from Vecini Distributing in Pittsburgh, and I was listening to Library of Congress interview. Alan Lomax, a famous musicologist, was interviewing Woody Guthrie. And he said, what do you tell me about being on the trains, going on trips? And he's like, yeah, we once went on a cross-country trip on trains, and we brewed a batch of homebrew on the way. And he's like, well, it was a five-day trip, and the yeast packet said, add one packet and wait eight days for your beer. I thought, well, what if I add eight packets and just wait one day? He's like, I've never been sicker in my life. I was like, holy s***, that too is a great idea. So basically, the label of this beer, Old School, is also made by that Chicago artist, John Langford, and the famous English punk band, The Meekons, and in the Chicago rock band, The Waco Brothers. It's an homage. It's not Woody Guthrie, but it's an homage to Woody Guthrie adding yeast into a beer. So essentially, it's a barley wine that traditional English barley wines have a lot of fruit character just from the esters and the fermentation process. But we thought we could amplify that fruit character by actually bringing the real dates and figs into the recipe. You can't have this. Is that how he does it? You can't have this. Well, who's that? Who are you guys? Roger. Oh, I'm imitating Borat, but we often try things on this where there are the amazing products and the listener can't go buy them. So this is my polite way of saying this is one of the best beers I've ever drank in my life. It ages gracefully and this is not something a lot of American brewers can always pull off. This is one of the best 10-year-old beers I've ever had. I've been in a lucky enough position to try a lot of like really old beer sometimes and this really did age just magnificently. It's pretty great. Thank you guys. We're really proud of this one. That's why we bring 120 worldwide out every year, is for people like us who are willing to have the patience to lay some of these balls down. I know your customers also, there's a bunch of people that come into your stores looking for opportunities on stuff like this, maybe buy two bottles and drink one relatively fresh and put one away. I know for a fact there are people that have bought cases of this to set down an age. They all have the same handwriting. Is that the Bring Back Chickery Stealth guy? All right. No, it's a great beer. We're big Barley Wine fans. This is one of the best. I got a- Thanks. Oh, I didn't get in Jackfruit. Have you ever heard of beer with Jackfruit? We lived an hour and 42 before he brought up Jackfruit. Unbelievable. He said breadfruit. I didn't think he was going to do it. Yeah. Is Jackfruit the drinking word in this game? Yes, it's the word. Jackfruit is his favorite fruit. And then we talk about it every episode. Every time. Did you know that they model juicy fruit gum after the flavor profile of Jackfruit? That's going on my list. I'm really against adjuncts. It's the largest tree grown fruit. I did not know this before I started hanging out with these guys. It is the largest tree grown fruit on the planet. Yeah. And Stratahops, the new hop darling, which I called early on, I believe, has throws Jackfruit character. So that's how this all started. I'm taking notes. What a pleasure. Normally, when we record this long, I'm like visibly bored. Or you're talking about the coniferous trees of the Pacific Northwest. That too. We love our hobbies. Yeah. Thank you. He appreciates it. So, we have a big thank you for this episode. Roger, thank you. It was my pleasure. I've been waiting for many years. So, thank you, Sam, for finally making it out here, making the time. What a fun conversation. We could keep talking for hours. You're truly, I think, one of the people that prophesizes beer better than anyone in the industry and gets people excited about it. So, thank you, Roger. And last time I got to hang with you, it was virtually as great that we got to drink together in a real room, in a real place. Last time I had my catchphrase, which was crushable. This time I'm doing your ad. It's, all right, everybody, jam down your throttle. It's time for Barrel to Bottle. Nice, I like that. We should pick that up. Funny cars, funny cars, funny cars. All right, guys, this has been super fun. Thank you. And thanks for listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast, backing your feed with something completely different. Until next time, I'm Greg. I'm Pat. I'm Roger. And I'm Sam. Keep tasting. All right, everybody, jam down your throttle. It's time for Barrel to Bottle.