Welcome to another edition of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm your host today, Roger Adamson. Joining me are Greg. Hey, I'm Greg. I do communications at Binny's. Hillary. Hillary Jurnak. I do communications at Binny's as well, and this is my first podcast. Hey, welcome. Thank you. And our very special guest, we have the co-founder of Stone Brewing Company, Mr. Greg Koch. Hi, I do communications for Stone Brewing. Stone opened their doors in 1996, so can you walk us through a little bit of what the beer market was like back then, both in the US as a whole, but more specifically in San Diego? Wow, let's get the way back machine going on here. So in San Diego in 1996, there were approximately 15 bars or restaurants with 10 craft beers on tap or more, and there were about 15 breweries at that time. City was not much changed in size, I don't think. Maybe, you know, a little shy of 2 million people. That's actually the whole county. Just for perspective then, fast forward to today, and there's 150 breweries and more than a thousand bars and restaurants with 10 beers on tap or more. That's a good scene. It's a robust scene. I've often written before that whenever I think of IPA, I immediately think of Stone. I don't know of a brewery that has more thoroughly explored this style than you guys. I mean, you can name the variant of type of IPA, red, black, white, all the colors. It seems like you guys have taken a stab at it. So the IPA that started at all, the original Stone IPA, let's pop one here and I wonder if you can just kind of tell us a little bit about how this come to be. Well, yes, Stone IPA came to be as a result of Steve and I wanting to celebrate the first anniversary of Stone. At that point, we had released Stone Pale Ale, our original, which is no longer around, and Stone Smoked Porter. It was the second beer we ever produced. That is also no longer around. So things change. Stone IPA, however, was a beer that we really wanted to produce for our anniversary. Steve and I had personal, strong predilection towards big character, hoppy, bold beers, and Stone IPA imbibed it wonderfully. Came out in the summer of 1997. This has changed a little bit in the recent past, correct? Yes. That's the 1.1 version. Actually, I think we've taken it off the label now because we had sort of communicated that and socialized it quite a bit for a couple of years. So a couple of years ago, we created Stone IPA version 1.1, and we called it 1.1 because it was really only a very modest shift. It wasn't a 2.0. So we updated it with some more modern varieties of hops that we just had fallen in love with, and frankly, we've learned a little bit about Stone IPA and IPA brewing over the years and hops and such. It's not like we knew everything back in 1997. Hell, I don't know anywhere close to everything now. I think that that's a smart lesson that we often lament when we see some of these iconic IPAs fading away and losing traction with the drinker. So I think that that was a smart move to kind of tweak it. And some breweries might be afraid to do that. But again, I think you added to it. You didn't take anything away. Afraid. We were mortified at the idea. It was seriously is one of the scariest things that we've done because you don't want to screw with something that's hallowed. And, you know, I'm not saying that how many people think it's hallowed. I know that we did, but yet it came down to the very fundamental thing. Do we think this new test recipe that we created was just a little incrementally better? And around the table, blind tastings and also when we knew which one was Sample A and which was Sample B, we just universally agreed we liked it a little bit better. But we also felt that it really still spoke loudly Stone IPA. Very clearly Stone IPA. That's why just 1.1, a small tweak. I got to tell you, I'm a fan of this style. This is classic, classic West Coast IPA. So there's a little bitterness in this IPA, Greg. Are you picking up on that? That's what I'm looking for. Repeated sips, you can start to suss it out there. Thank you for continuing to make this beer. So I said this before, every time that Roger tries something like this, he actually tells me about it. He's like, Greg, you're going to like this beer. I don't know if all the beer nerds are going to line up for it, but Greg, you're going to like this beer. That's what he said. And this Greg likes it as well. And thank you. We've seen on our shelves today that you can make an IPA with essentially zero bitterness, things that see literally almost nothing in the boil as far as hops. It's all after the fact. I mean, I think you, maybe more than anyone else, has championed beer that's a little more challenging and that has some bitterness to it. Arrogant Bastard is one of the most bitter beers I ever tried the first time that I had a sip of it. But as far as the IPA goes, since it is such a style that's attached to hoppiness, is bitterness part of the equation? Can we have beers called IPAs now? I mean, we can, I guess, but should we have IPAs that have literally no bitterness, that have lactose in them, fruit? What are your thoughts? Well, you know, there's this thing called acquired taste. And there's a reason why those two word phrases associated with a higher, more sophisticated level of something. It suggests that the more sophisticated, the more nuanced, the more depth, you know, it often requires some acclimatization in the equation. Now, some people will gravitate towards something immediately. Sometimes they'll have, you know, caviar or, you know, uni at their favorite sushi place for the first time and love it. But a lot of people, it takes some time. So bitterness in a beer like Stone IPA is in that category for me. It takes some acclimatization for some people. But when you get there, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm so happy to be here. And you can't imagine anything without it. So you're asking me, can or should IPA's with lactose or food or extremely low or no bitterness, you know, be allowed to exist? As soon as I'm made king or emperor or whatever, I may give you a different answer because I might then get power mad. But in between now and then, since that's not the case, I'm going to say, you know, people can do whatever they damn well please. Have you made a hazy style? We've made a hybrid hazy. So our beer called Stone Fear Movie Lions, double IPA. I tried that one. I loved it. Yeah, it's a nice beer. I'm super proud of it. And it is ostensibly a blend between a West Coast style and a hazy style IPA. So it's got a bitterness. Let me give you this analogy. We all know you guys in the beverage industry, not just beer, at Binny's, we all know those big reds that are juicy and some of them can be a bit flabby. You know, and flabby reds will often appeal to somebody who hasn't developed their palate to gravitate toward a red with more structure. And personally, I don't like flabby reds. I might enjoy it for the first half a glass. And then you're just like, okay, I'm done. Right, right. But the soft, fruity red is at the top sales, one of the top selling categories that we have right now. There you go. And it's even like ushering in a renewed wine audience of people who haven't been able to get into wine so far because they're off put by the austerity. Fair enough. And so they're, you know, should a flabby red, this is a very similar question, should a flabby red be allowed to exist? Or should they? Yeah, I mean, I'm making it, it's not my position to take it away from somebody, but do- Yeah, Roger. But have you ever brewed something where you were like, let's never talk about this again? Well, that's the difference between brewed and brewed and released. Brewed with the intentions to release, but didn't go as planned. I'd be embarrassed to say if that didn't happen, that should happen. You're not trying if that doesn't happen. You need to be pushing yourself and stretching out and going down avenues that don't end up working out. Otherwise, you're just mailing it in. So you got it. Hey, failing is really important because you'll learn from it, hopefully. So then you mix in some papaya and call it tasting room only? Well, I remember years ago, and this would be more common today, or a local brewery had a beer that went off in the wrong direction, at least the brewmaster owner felt. I actually thought it was pretty damn good. He said, yeah, but I can't sell this. I actually like it too, but it's way too funky, too weird. I said, look, just raise the price and say it's special. Livingston Edition, put it in a big bottle. Exactly. But the thing is, it was actually a wonderful beer, so I don't think he was fooling or tricking anybody, but sometimes you have to create a little bit of an image around something. Sure. Roger, you cracked another one. A beer that's pretty iconic. People actually have gotten this logo tattooed on their bodies. I've seen it. Okay. You're really stretching gears here. So this is to the Arrogant Consortia now. Yeah. So I know you don't necessarily like to throw people in the deep end, but I'm going to anyway. Oh, I love throwing people in the deep end. It's actually one of my favorite things. You just walk by as they're standing there looking at the deep end, standing on the edge of the pool or the lake or whatever, and you just innocently give them a little push. So I want to read part of the can here before I pass it around. The end of a very long paragraph, which I think was pretty innovative at the time. I don't know that anyone wrote this much on a bottle at the time, but it says, questions or comments. If you don't like this beer, keep it to yourself. We don't want to hear from you any sniveling yellow beer drinkin wimps, because this beer wasn't made for you. And I found myself mouthing along as you were reading that, because of course I know those words well. How did this beer come about? So Arrogant Bastard came about during one of the early home brewing sessions that Steve and I had. We have two different memories of exactly how that day and that brew session went down. Steve's memory and the correct memory. As I remember, because I can only tell you from my memory, in the book, The Craft of Stone Brewing, Steve was brewing on this new system he had just gotten, and I was helping him just doing whatever he told me to do, because I was his home brewing lackey buddy. That meant the one that followed the directions, hopefully. And he started cursing halfway through the brew sometime, and I'm like, what's going on? He's like, ah, jeez. I made a mistake. I miscalculated on some of the specialty malts and on the hops, you know, doubled it by accident. And well, as I recall, it was too late in the day to restart, to dump it all and restart the brew. So we went ahead and finished. Thank goodness. A couple of weeks later, it was fermented and ready to go. We tasted it and we're like, wow. I've heard that, you know, you've been, you've been called a genius for your marketing on this beer, but you are legitimately concerned that people wouldn't be able to handle this beer. I have been called a genius so many times. It's amazing considering it's so far from reality. It's really, it's like the nicest compliment that I feel odd about. It's like being called a true beauty. I'd be like, well, that's a nice thing to say, but how did you get there? So we have a tradition here in Chicago, which I've never really been that big of a fan of, but have you drank Malort before? I'm not familiar. Oh my God. Oh boy. All right, we got to get somebody to get a bottle of Malort before this is over. You're right. You're right. So when I first drank this beer years ago, when you weren't even in Chicago yet, people were crossing the border into Indiana to get Arrogant Bastard, I just didn't know what to make of it. I mean, I've had quite a few beers since then, and like you've told people, you don't necessarily just dive right in to Arrogant Bastard. So I drink it now and love it, but I couldn't finish a Bomber the first time I tried it. I just, it was so bracingly bitter. I'm like, what is this? And we should describe it. Okay. So it's like caramel malt or something right now. Like it's a brown, it looks like a nut brown ale. And then you try it and it's not super bitter upfront, but the longer you sit with it, like it just grows and grows and grows. Malort. It does have some notes of malort. But what's funny is that malort doesn't even sound good. No, it's not. It's horrible. But your beer is pretty good. Okay. It's great though. Yeah. I mean, it is a Chicago- I don't want to diss this thing that I don't know about. It's a Chicago institution and it's hilarious. I'm shocked that you haven't tried it because it's so amazingly bitter. And their whole ad campaign for a while, it's very small, not very- is it a beer? It's a bitter liqueur. It's Swedish. It's supposed to be. Urban legend that it's Swedish for wormwood. Okay. So, I mean, it tastes like deep woods off mixed with freshly cut grass. Let him try it. No. Mixed with a little bit of that like taste, you know? Oh, the bile? Yeah. Okay. No, it's great. It's great. Bottle is exactly how I describe it. You'll want seconds. I'm actually really intrigued. It completely lacks the caramel sweetness that helps balance for as crazy big of a beer as this is. But it has like a grapefruit sweetness. I still think what's really interesting is this beer, it had this famous reputation for being so crazy bitter, but it's not as bitter as some double IPAs that have no malt backbone, that are just more of like a pills malt base. So there's none of that sweetness to help balance out some of the... Well, as I like to tell, you know, budding craft beer aficionados, bitterness is not a linear scale. It's not either more or less. It's nuanced, it's three-dimensional. It's got a lot of characters to it, or a variety of different characters at different times to it. And so there can be a low-IBU beer that is unpleasantly bitter, and an extremely high-IBU beer that is deliciously bitter. And it just depends on the hops, and the way you use it, and the full recipe, and so on. A bottle of Malort has just entered the room. Now the new guest of honor. A bottle of Malort is being poured into a tasting glass. You want a full shot? How deep do you want to go on this? It is being smelled by me right now. Oh, you're not supposed to smell it. Okay. You know, it's actually, it's like a little bit of a caciasa. Like if I didn't know so far, I haven't tried it yet, I would say just from the color and the aroma, this is making me think of a caciasa. Oh boy. That's a disservice of caciasa. Okay. But now I'm getting a little bit more of that Akavit kind of sheer fusal alcohols coming out notes off the top. You get an herbaceous note at all? Some. It's not as strong as described. I feel like I was oversold there. Is this the first time we've actually tasted Malort on the podcast? Are we tasting or shooting it? We're tasting. I'm tasting it. I don't know why I'm asking for it. I know what this tastes like and I don't want to taste it. It's just, you know, not only your words, but the tone of your voice really resembled those words. This reticence that was sort of just coming out of you, dripping out of you, I would say at that moment. Okay, I'm going in. Welcome to Chicago, Greg. Okay. Cheers. Oh, I like that. It's got orange. It's got a definite orange back note. Pithy, you know, that bitter, bitter, bitter orange. Now, I like bitters. Grapefruit Pith. Yeah, Grapefruit Pith. It's coming in later. I was getting orange right up front and now it's coming in to that. How many thumbs up? Is this, this seems like it's being filmed. It's being filmed. How many, how many thumbs? One or two? I'm going to, you know what? I'm not doing this just to be a contrarian. I swear. I'm giving it two thumbs up. I like this. Yeah. It's superb. And the thing is like you have your first one at two in the morning and it hits your stomach. And you're just, ah. Yeah. Exactly. And you just relax and everything feels fine. It's a bit of a reset button. Turn on your camera. I'm going to do something that should not be done. And so I'm doing it so you don't have to. Okay. And there we go. Just a little bit of Malort. And the Arrogant Bastard ale here. And there I am. I'm sort of doing a little bit of a depth charge or what do you call it. Yeah, exactly. I'm a curious person by nature. And as I said earlier, you asked me about brews that we've, you know, I may say this was the worst thing ever. And I just ruined my little taster glass of I'll join you. I'll join you. We'll see. We'll see what this does. Okay. Yours was like 50-50. Yeah, I know. Mine was like at most a 10 to 1. Okay. The truth is, I just have Malort on my palate right now. And I couldn't tell anyways, because that Malort is going to have to stay with you for quite some time. So I'm going to have to, back to this to give you my, but as it is, it tasted like Malort. I think anything that I would have tasted just now, you could have given me like a chocolate bar. I'm like, this chocolate bar tastes like Malort. So, it's now the time where we're going to take this podcast and dial it back and try a lager. Yeah, so now that your palate's completely ruined, let's talk about your brand new beer. Also from the Arrogant Consortia line, we have Enter Night. Enter Night Pilsner, and this seems appropriately timed considering I saw Metallica play in Indianapolis last night, and I get to go to the show tomorrow in Grand Rapids, and this is our collaboration with said band. So, how did that come about? Metallica approached you? Yeah, actually the people approached us, they had been considering doing something in the beer realm, and had been researching whom might they want to do it with, and our name evidently kept coming up, which kind of makes sense to me, to be honest Why is that? Expound? Well, we are kind of a... There's just so many similarities in our backgrounds and approach to our individual art, and just our lives and whatnot. It felt very natural. You actually had a background in the music industry before you came to beer? Yeah, and I was always personally into heavy music, and I was an early Metallica fan, and I have been to this day, and there's just a wide variety of just big music that I like. And also, they and their philosophy were somewhat foundational to the philosophy that we have at Stone. As in life and art, you get lots of inspiration from a wide variety of sources and areas, and then you kind of take it in and assimilate it, and it comes back out in its own personality, your personality and your style. I'm going to pause for a moment, take a sip of the Enter Night Pilsener. Cheers. I say this might even stand up to the Malort a bit. So this is a Pilsener. You definitely taste some hot presents. How was the collaborative process like? Did you approach them with several different styles or like how accessible did you want this beer to be? Because I could see that being a bit of a hurdle with your kind of stick to your guns and we brew beer and we'll see if people are ready for it. Are you talking about the Fizzy Yellow reference on the back of the other camp? Yeah, Greg. Hell yeah. You're damn right. He's referring to it and he should be. And I welcome it. So I think that if Metallica ever started thinking about the accessibility of a new song or an album, that would be a mistake because they, you know, I think first and foremost, you have to be true to yourself, who you are as an artist. In this case, as an artist, we are a company that has been built around, you know, the early foray into our art that Steve and I first created. And now they've been building upon that. So but as that entity, you just got to realize that there are things that are true to you. And so we had to focus on doing something that we felt was true to us. It also was right for that occasion, tailgating and hanging out with your buddies, cranking up the tunes and, you know, that kind of, we wanted a beer that was felt right in that occasion. What's the ABV on it? 5.7. All right. Yeah. So it's not a, you know, kick in the head level. Now, as I was saying those other things, I have to admit that just about any beer we produce fits in that occasion for me. Right. You got to meet my friends before you make that comment. Yeah. This is, to me, it's, you know, Pilsner played through a distortion pedal. It seems pretty amped up, like it's crisp, but it has, like Roger said, a lot of hoppy presence. Yeah. I give like a lot of peppery quality from it, which that's a little out there for Pilsner. From the Malort. Yeah. Probably. To be fair, we just, we drank Arrogant Bastard and Malort before we tried this. So, but yeah, when you do it on fresh palate. Was getting that call from Metallica, like a top five moment for you? Okay. This, you said, you brought it up by the way. Does that mean you're about to make a drop of that? I'm about to top five. Well, I'm going to, this is not number five out of the top five. This is above that. So, yesterday, I woke up in Chicago. Last night, I saw the band playing in Indianapolis. How did I get from there to there? They invited me to fly on their plane with them. Is it a nice plane? It's not actually their plane. It's not a branded Metallica plane. They use a private jet service. All right. That's fine. Do you have any juicy secrets? Juicy secrets? I think their juicy secrets are mostly behind them. And on film. Did you sleep? So did you guys just watch Seinfeld? Yeah. Play cards. Oh, on the flight. Well, actually, it was one of those rare flights where you're wishing it had been longer. But the up-down flight from here to Indianapolis is pretty quick. It was less than 40 minutes. The Uber ride to the airport is longer. Yeah. Actually, it was longer. Yeah. Have you made any requests while on tour? Do you have a favorite Metallica song that you've kind of said, you know, it'd be pretty great if you guys would play this song. You know, I'm not presuming to sort of tell them how to do their thing. Well, you did make a beer for them. I mean, I think you could make one request. Yeah, you get a little bit of say. You know what? You know what, guys? You're right. Yeah, that's right. Actually, they're pretty good for that because they often will ask their fans, of which I am one, what they want to hear. So maybe you'll find me volunteering that information to them in the future. Just changing gears here a little bit, the market right now, we deal with this on a daily basis, seems to be obsessed with what's new. And I'm just curious from a veteran of the craft beer industry, you have so many well-made beers in your portfolio. Does this get frustrating to have to feel like you need to continuously innovate? Which you do, by the way. Yeah, actually, yeah, I can't put a negative on continuous innovation. You know, that's something you love doing. And we do with our brewery restaurants in Liberty Station, adjacent to downtown San Diego, with the Stone Brewing World Beast Roam Gardens there, up at Stone Brewing Napa. And it's just... I guess what I would ask is, you know, you gotta give up beers, right? I mean, there's beers that you have to run into fans that just say, I loved fill in the blank. I mean, your Molk IPA was something I never thought in a million years. It's like, this seems gimmicky. This can't be good. And you try it, you're like, this is incredible. And I begged, I begged our team. We gotta re-release Stone Gendia Pale Ale again. The Gendia Pale Ale, did you have that one? I loved that. I personally loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. But you know what? Not enough of all you guys out there loved it also. Fair enough. I get it. I get it. Because you know, not everything, you know, you want to be proud of the stuff that you put on the album, but not everything is going to be a radio hit. And I get that. And so not everything is going to end up on the best of compilation. And I get that. So you can still have your personal favorites and I can't, well, actually, I was saying, you can still listen to them whenever you want. In this case, I can't have a Stone Gendia Pale Ale whenever I want. I won't make it no more. And I drank all what I had. The constant more new, new, new, new, new, new is both invigorating and can be fatiguing at the same time. I get frustrated when I go into a craft beer bar. And I know that there are so many beers out there that are more wonderful than the ones that they have on tap at the moment. And while some of the ones on tap might be good, some might be actually not very good at all. And they are making their selection based on new more than qualitative. But people know. I mean, you have to know that people know. Oh, I love your faith in humanity. I wish I shared it. Some people know is what he meant to say. Some people know. In the long run, in the long, long run, you keep making good stuff and you're going to stick around. And clearly, it's working. Well, that's true. In the long run, as you make good stuff, people will notice. And I hope that I can look in the mirror at ourselves. I don't want to pat myself or our company on the back. But I think that the best stuff does eventually over time stick out. But not everybody's on the same curve. That's why I can be really accepting of somebody who's a fizzy yellow beer drinker today. Well, I might make a little bit of fun. There was a point in my past when that's all I knew. Granted, it wasn't the world of cornicopia of choice that we have today. But still, everybody has their first moment. Here's my get off my lawn statement. When I started drinking beer, I would read a book like by Michael Jackson, and I would want to try all these different styles of beer. And just because one style of beer was the rage, I mean, I can remember thinking it was even being bored with the craft beer scene early on because everyone was kind of hyper obsessed with IPAs then. Little did I know what would happen. You know, I, why doesn't even care about German beer, Belgian beer? Like I kind of started with that and then moved on up to the American craft beer scene. And what I find frustrating is many new beers that come out. It's the beers that they're new, but they're kind of the same beer with just slight tweaks. Like this is basically the same beer we made last time, but with a different hop. This is basically the same beer we made last time, but it has lactose in it this time. Whereas, you know, you used to brew a beer like Levitation that, you know, had some malt backbone, was sessionable, had some bitterness to it. But in today's market, would anybody like seek that out or understand it or want it? I don't know. Some people would, but you have to, again, it's up to us to decide, you know, what our art is and release it into the world. And it's up to others to decide if they want to call up the radio station and request them to play it again. You know, that's the equivalent of coming into your place and saying, hey, I want to buy that off the shelf. And so ultimately the people speak and just say, these are the aspects of your art. These are the, you know, the songs that we will respond to the best. And so while I would like them to respond to every song we write, to every beer we brew, you know, to the heights of possible for, you know, for it, that's not the way. So I try not to have a lot of misgivings. And yes, we love Stone Levitation Ale. But we've brewed other beers instead. And that's okay. I'd like to ask all of our listeners to email Greg and Stone Brewing and tell them how much you missed Sublimely Self-Righteous Ale. I would like to ask all of the listeners to tell Binny's to put in a compelling order for Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous Ale throughout all of the storage and guarantee shelf space for the next 18 to 24 months. Point, point, counterpoint. Well spoken. But it just illustrates, hey, it's a team effort, right? And we all have to be on the same page. And when we're not, that means that somebody's going to maybe be disappointed. In this case, it might be some of the fans of Stone Levitation Ale and us at Stone. But those fans have to get on board too. Yeah, we get it. Or in the right numbers and everything else. But if they're buying something else that they prefer more, that's what I would do. I'm going to buy the one I want the most. It's pretty much like the label of Arrogant Bastard. And most people are not sophisticated enough to enjoy to blindly self-righteous, so I get it. Yeah, I guess, fix it, people. These two last beers that we're going to share from my cellar, I really wanted to drink them with you. Is that Courage? This is Courage Russian Imperial Stout. And then this one is from 2012, and then I have a 2014 bottle of Stone Imperial Russian Stout. This was a big deal for you to get this on this bottle. Can you tell us a little bit about that, what that was like? Oh, you're going in the way again, way back machine. So, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, there was a time when the only country that could be on a front label of a beer or name of a beer in which that beer wasn't actually brewed was in India Pale Ale, IPA. It wasn't brewed in India, but it was a style, it was recognized as a style of beer for its historical context of being sent to India. So we wanted to label Imperial Russian Stout or as they're sometimes called Russian Imperial Stout with in such a manner. And while some breweries had done so, they'd actually done so without the technical approval of the government, which we were just, I'm just, this is a story of how we weren't so brave to just go ahead and do it anyways. And so we applied to the federal government and said, hey, no, this is not a Russian style stout, because they told us we needed to label it that way. I said, actually, they don't, and at that time, they didn't brew the style of beer in Russia. So that would be misleading, because they said it would be misleading to put the word Russian on the label. So we explained, sent them paperwork. They said no, sent them half an inch of paperwork the next year. They said no, sent them three inches of paperwork. Look, breweries all over the world are brewing this style. We're not making this up. It isn't just us. You're lawyered up. And well, it's in an official way. Yeah, we just gave them an avalanche of data and evidence. And eventually they said, okay. And that was the first time in, I think it was like 63 years, the federal government recognized a new designation for a country being used as a style of beer in which it did not actually have to be brewed in that country. Long story short, thanks to this guy, Russian Imperial Stout is a style. It wasn't just me. We had a team, Chris Cochran, who worked for us at the time. He put a lot of effort in it. He's a genius and he's modest. So you're clearly inspired by some of the original takes on the style, Courage being one of the few that was available even to get. What was your take when Stone approached? We're going to make a Russian style, Imperial Stout. What made it a Stone interpretation of that? This one, I think we went a little bit more traditional than typical for our company, but we felt that this was such an underrepresented style at the time that we first came out with it. I think 99, just as a great introduction point. Since then, clearly, Imperial style stouts and Russian Imperial style stouts have grown in their scope and in the style within the US craft brewing market in ways that are just immense and wonderful. Stone Imperial Russian Stout, or our current totalitarian, as we call it now, is still, you know, it doesn't try to be the biggest and the boldest. It just tries to be a great interpretation. We tend to be a little drier than a lot of the takes. Yeah, that shows. Yeah. A lot of them are, you know, have a heavy, heavy sweetness, heavy. And that, in this case, it seems to have let it age pretty gracefully. Oh, this ages beautifully. Yeah. As we're seeing right here. Frankly, I think some of those others that are on the sweeter side also age really nicely. I think it's just a wonderful style. It's quite nuanced. And there's many different ones, many different takes. I like the dryness of this, though. And I think if you're going to seller something, so many people now are hung up on barrel aged beers and selling their barrel aged beer. I typically don't do that as much. I like to seller more traditional interpretations of the style like this. It's a really, really great beer. The seller shows. I mean, it's got that autumnal and also minty quality. Yeah. There's like a little bit of a subtle, subtle, sherry character that's pretty cool. We drink a lot of dessert style souts these days, and this is like a breath of fresh air. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. We feel it's authentic to us and we love it. And so we decided not to chase after some of that. Although on the other hand, we've done some barrel aged versions of this beer that we adore. So do you brew any beers with corn syrup or rice? I think that a couple of our little breweries in a couple of our restaurants, we may have had a brewer use rice at some point, but it was for enhancement or with the flavor profile. But we have never used such ingredients for the intent to simplify a flavor profile. And I'm generally not a, yeah, it would be an anomaly. Less than 0.01 percent of Stone beers. We're waiting for someone to pick up the flag on this recent trend in marketing. And we kind of feel like Stone would be a brewery that would maybe attack that. Every time that I would sort of wag my finger or poke fun or do something like that, then some legit craft brewer somewhere does that thing and proves me wrong. I'm used to being, and actually this is wonderful. If you're like, I thought you couldn't do X or Y and make it awesome. And then you show me you can. That's actually a good thing. I don't mind being put in my place with that. Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the Q&A portion of the Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Write your question to us at comments.binnies.com via email or at Binny's Bev on social media, on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. And if we answer your question on the podcast, you win a $20 Binny's gift card. That's enough for a bottle of Malort. Wow. So, our question today comes... I've been answering your question, so that means I automatically get a bottle of Malort to take with me. Isn't that... We'll get you that bottle of Malort. Yeah, I got 7 eighths of a bottle of Malort for you. We'll make some friends on the Metallica play. Our question today comes from Steve K. Steve writes, Bottles or Cans? Yes. Yeah? Clapping hands. I just got Steve 20 bucks. So, we're pretty big defenders of cans around here. It keeps beer fresher. It's easier to transport, less destruction to the environment. They go on a boat. So, you're still bottling some of your stuff in bottles too. And I know... That's what we're bottling. Yeah, we definitely bottle in our bottles. Apologies. Apologies. Hey, it happens when you're drinking a little bit of beer, you're hanging out. So, you definitely package in bottles and also cans, as we're seeing on the table here. Not just in large format bottles. Any other alternate packages? I'm not such a big fan of the PET bottle. P-E-T, as it's known. This single-use plastic bottle, which is ostensibly recyclable but doesn't get recycled, even if you drop it into the recycle... So, just... I don't buy them at all. And is a byproduct of the natural gas production process. Right. And is filling up our oceans, poisoning our dolphins and destroying the earth. And China will no longer take our piles and piles and piles of it. So, we're stuck and it's now being incinerated in many municipalities. Just stop, people. Stop. With the bottled water. With the bottle. So, plastic bottles. Just avoid plastic bottles. Hey, it's... don't... you know... use a drinking fountain, damn it. What we usually like to tell people with the bottles or cans question is that to fully appreciate whatever beer you're drinking, you should be pouring it into a glass. Sure, you or I might enjoy it more to pour it into a glass and might even advocate to pour it in the glass. And I might have, in my past, wagged my finger a little bit, but honestly, I don't anymore. And at home, I find it's 50-50. I will just crack open the can and drink straight, and fifth percent of the time, I'm like, no, I want the experience of having this beer in a glass. I'm shocked that I'm hearing this right now. I'm alarmed. You are not advocating to pour beer in a glass? I can't believe this. I am. I think if you rewind the tape, if we imagine this isn't tape and not digital, I actually said I would recommend a glass, but I'm not going to wag my finger if you don't. How do you feel about a frosted schooner? Okay, that's a heavy wagging. I'm going to lop you under. I love that. Yeah, right. Do whatever you want unless you're drinking from a frosted schooner. And I got to tell you, I have some friends that own bars and they serve their beer in schooners and I hate the schooner and I love them and I love their bar and I love the beer I get at their bar. I hate the schooner. Roger looks so smug right now. Schooner is an awful vessel. It's just like, it's clumsy. It's like drinking out of a fish bowl. It's clumsy. All right, Steve, I hope that gives you $20 worth of answer. Thank you for writing in. Everyone else can email their questions and comments at binnys.com or hit us up on social media, Binny'sBev, on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Follow us. That's how I keep my job. You can follow me at StoneGreg. I don't actually use the platforms anymore, so you're going to be speaking into the ether. But somebody's listening. Somebody will read it. Somebody, maybe. I don't know. Stone Brewing co-founder, Greg Koch, thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure. Thanks, folks, for listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. We'll be back in your feed next week. Until then, I'm Greg. I'm Roger. I'm Hillary. I'm Greg Koch. Keep tasting.