Hey everybody, you're listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, I do communications at Binny's. Joining me remotely, of course, today, we have Chris. Hey, I'm Chris. I do wine. And we have Alicia. Hello, good to be here. I don't know if you guys know this, but before I was communications at Binny's, I was wine at Binny's, so we have like an all wine crew today. So it might get kind of nerdy, probably. And not only is it going to get nerdy, but it's going to get nerdy on not an obscure category, but one that like wine novices aren't used to. Alicia, you set it all up, right? What are we doing today? Yeah, we're going to head to Piedmont today in northwest Italy. And I think it's a region that you probably all have heard of and have had wines from, but we're going to take a little bit of a deep dive into this fantastic region that we know for. I think the Nebbiolo grape is kind of what first comes to our mind, but we're going to explore a range of varieties today. And I first want to open it up and actually talk about kind of some of the historical context. And Italy, of course, has been making wine for many, many centuries. And we kind of think of Tuscany. We think of the creation there of kind of the modern DOC system. We think of the South as well and all the co-ops and kind of bulk wine that's produced there. But the North and kind of the heartland, especially Milan being such a cosmopolitan capital and a fashion capital for many, many years. Do they still have Fashion Week in Milan? Not this year. Not this year. At least not a normal Fashion Week. But I thought we need to pay a little bit more attention to the North. And traditionally, they would struggle to reliably ripen grapes up here. And so they would add in wine from the South, especially from places like Puglia, for example, to add kind of color and alcohol to bulk up these wines in the North. But now, and in the last 100 years, this is really not a concern. And they are producing some of the finest wines of the world. I think I can say that without question. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that point. Barolo and barberaresco are at the top of the heap worldwide. How big is the Piedmont region? I mean, like, when you say Tuscany and Piedmont, like I think those are the wine regions that definitely, like, have their hooks in American culture. That's where we know wines come from, especially the more expensive wines of Italy. But when you say Tuscany, you have to think like Brunello and Chianti. And when you think Piedmont, it's a whole bunch of different, like, towns and sub-regions, right? Like, even your wine novice, like, one of the first wines I ever had, and this is probably pretty common, is the Moscato di Asti, and I don't know that people recognize that as Piedmont, but it totally is. Yeah, absolutely. I think, Greg, you're right. It's a relatively large geographical area, but it's parsed up into pretty small territory. So, like, barbaresco is very small. And there's a lot of grape growing that you're not going to see represented here. I mean, there are things that rarely get imported, like Herbaluce di Caluso and Frasier and Brachetto, you see. Yeah, there are a lot of tiny little regions and quite a lot of grape varieties. But today we're going to focus on the main ones. But I think you're absolutely spot on. The regions are pretty small. And to make it more complicated, they're not very well, at least not officially delineated by crews or anything like that, although people want to do that. So in Barolo, there are lots of subregions, but they're kind of informal and lots of crew vineyards, but again, not formally recognized. I actually think Piedmont is a pretty intimidating section to shop in, not because you can't connect that if it's Barolo DOCG, it's made of 100% Nebbiolo, like we know that. But within Barolo itself, we have a variety of soil tapes, kind of two main ones producing two pretty different styles of wine, and thus kind of hard to figure out if you don't know where that producer is sourcing from or where the vineyards are, kind of what style you're kind of getting into. And there are 60 DOC and DOCGs within the Piedmont region, so there's a lot to uncover. And there are DOCs that also produce Nebbiolo but are less known, like Gattinara and Gammay. So it's not just Barolo and barbaresco. Okay. Gattinara is the weird funky bottle that's all melting, right? Yeah, from Travolini. And did you say Gammay? Gammay. G-H-E-M-M-E. This thing is even more confusing. Gammay. Oh. I've been saying that wrong. Gattinara and Gammay are right next to each other, across a river from each other. And they both focus on Nebbiolo. But unlike barbaresco and Barolo, they can blend other things in there like vespa Lina and Bonarda. Speaking of grapes that nobody knows or cares about. I thought only South Americans group Bonarda. Ironically, same name, different grape variety. Oh, it's only getting more and more confusing. Oh, my. Yeah, the problem with grape name synonyms is is ongoing. I mean, there's so many things that are called the same thing or something very similar in different regions. It's sometimes hard to parse out, but that's true. So before we get into the wines, kind of geographically here, just to put ourselves in place, we're at kind of the foot of the mountains here, hence Piedmont, and you're really cradled by the Alps and the apennines. So it's a pretty protected area with the Po River, Italy's longest river running through it. And formerly it was part of the Kingdom of Savoy. And I share this because it was the driving force, this area behind the Italian reunification in the 19th century. It led initial phases of the Industrial Revolution. And even before that, given its proximity to France, it actually was very much open to French ideals and culture, and especially when it came to the Enlightenment period. And so this has really been quite a different place culturally than the rest of Italy. And in fact, some of the first modern Barolo wines were made with the help of a French analogist, Louis Houdar. So lots of kind of French influence and just cultural influence from the rest of the continent due to its location up here. Only part of Italy that borders both France and Switzerland, right? Yeah, Italy borders France, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, and all along the border there, the wines kind of can overlap and can, you know, there's lots of cultural influence. Like in the Northeast, you get a lot of Germanic influence from Austria, and over here, like you say, lots of French influence. And there's even Nebbiolo grown in Switzerland. So you see that too. I was talking to an Italian landowner, winery owner, actually from Tuscany. And he was talking about some other producers, and he badmouthed somebody as being German. But he was like, yeah, their family came to Italy in like the 1600s. Is this like new money? Johnny, come later. Nice guy, otherwise. So while some of the kind of best vineyard sites in Piedmont are reserved for the prized Nebbiolo grape, we're going to save that one to the end. And we're going to start with a white wine here. We're going to start with Arnace from Rowero, D-O-C-G. And white grapes in Piedmont actually used to be an afterthought but have gained attention in the late 20th century, in the early 21st century. And I'm glad, Chris, you mentioned Mascato d'Asti. That's one of the reasons why people have kind of thought twice now about white grape varieties, cortese being another one used in Gavi. But Arnace is native to this region, to specifically Rowero itself. It was on the verge of disappearing in the 1970s and actually was able to meet Luca Vietti when he was here in Chicago at a trade tasting. It was his grandfather that he says kind of saved this variety from extinction. Yeah. Vietti absolutely pulled this one out of the fire. By the 70s, Bruno Giacosa and Vietti were the only people working with this grape. It's worthy of saving. It's a very delicate, lightly floral, almond-scented aromatic wine. I always think it's gorgeous. In particular, Vietti and Giacosa make brilliant examples of it. Unlike some other Italian-made grape varieties that we think of, something that's a little bit different about Arnace is that it doesn't carry this naturally high acidity that we think of with other Italian wines. It's definitely present in the wine and gives a refreshing element to it, but I would say it's medium acidity and it plays just this structural role rather than something that really hits you in the face and cleanses your palate thoroughly. I would say definitely that's generally true, although I'm a little surprised by how bright and citrusy this vintage of Vietti is. It's usually a little softer, but it has a nice kind of orangey. Like lemon curd. Yeah. If I was tasting this blind, I would totally guess it is a Sauvignon Blanc not from New Zealand, probably California. interesting. It has like bright fresh fruit without getting too tropical, without getting too acidic like you guys are saying, but it's still a structure. I was expecting something way more in insipid than this. No. This is why it's a good thing that they save this one, because it is not insipid. It's quite interesting and delicious and a compelling contrast to a lot of Italian whites which can be very neutral, let's say, especially things made out of Trebbiano, which is really widely grown. This has a unique personality. You might also confuse it with a riesling, like not a German riesling, but one from the Pacific northwest that's done on the drier, more flinty side of things. Yeah. It's delicately aromatic. It's not full-on, but as Chris said, there is a delicate perfume, so you can draw that parallel. You're right, it is quite zesty and a little zippy, so I can see that. They're typically making this unoaked fermenting it in stainless steel. I think they left it on the leaves for a little bit here just for texture but a pretty clean style for sure. Yeah, definitely a clean style. I think the fruits beyond citrusy notes kind of speak of orchard fruits. Pear often crops up in these wines. I don't know. I think this is a really pretty example that would be a great aperitif wine just on its own or serve with very light appetizers or maybe a fish dish, but it's not going to handle anything that's too intense food-wise. Don't you think? Fish, oysters, and that really crusty bread with a tiny bit of brie, like the light brie, camembert, that kind. I love it. I do love camembert. Although camembert is quite assertive if you buy good camembert. Yeah, the cheap kind without too much rind. Yeah. A lot of domestically produced camembert and even some French camembert that's produced in factories is a little bit, as you say, insipid, Greg. Yeah. But if you get a really good example, particularly an au lait crew example, they're highly aromatic and quite assertive in their flavors of, you know. In this episode, Chris badmouths cheese. I'm promoting cheese. That insipid kind that you're talking about is almost like butter, except it's better than butter. And that uncrusty bread with this wine would be just fine. Just fine. I'm going to draw a parallel here from people who say, oh, I don't like camembert. It's just kind of creamy and neutral and uninspiring. I would say the same thing to them, as I say to people that say they don't like Pinot Noir, which is spend more money. Yeah. Hey. Because camembert can actually have tons of personality and can be really stinky, like not a poiss stinky, but like it can have some really nice development on it. But unfortunately, much that you buy just in like a supermarket for seven dollars is not going to be very interesting. I'm going to give a specific plug here. It's hard to find good camembert in this country. The other day, I bought two camembert. And frankly, they're probably not selling very well because they're quite aggressive in their flavor profile and they had them marked down half price. And they were quite ripe, but I don't mind that. And, you know, they're expensive little wheels of camembert. They're like fifteen dollars. But I got them for six fifty or something a piece. And how many did you buy? Two. I mean, I can't. If they were younger, I might have bought more. But they were already pushing their life expectancy. But they're humblebrag. They're fabulous, honestly. Really, as close as you can get to Olay Crew, French camembert in this country. So circling back to the Arnès really quickly, when we were selecting the wines for this episode, I mean, we could have easily just selected the whole Vietti portfolio, and it would have been amazing. So I just want to say this winery, it's now has been run for four generations, was founded in the late 1800s by Carlo Vietti. And it's run now by Luca and his wife, Elena, and just absolutely beautiful wines. So I would trust the producer, kind of no matter what type of wine you want to go to in Piedmont. You can pick up that Vietti Roero Arnès for $21.99 at your local Binny's. I couldn't agree with that more. Their Barberas are always some of my favorites every year. One of the few Dolcettos on the shelf that I think is a true standout, and the Barolos are unimpeachable. And they're from Castiglione Filetto, which is on the eastern side of the Appalachian, where the soils tend to give you bigger, bolder red wines, but really well managed tannins. Everything is beautiful about those wines. And I'm just going to circle back. I'd be remiss if I didn't say this. There's a local cheese in the Piedmont called Robiola, which is made in a soft, ripened style that I think is more delicate than a good camembert. And so if you want that experience, maybe a Robiola would be a great option. I do. Yeah, do it then. Gentlemen, shall we move on to Barbera? How do you say numero dos in Italian? Due. Je ne sais pas. It's a due. So we have a Barbera here? yes. So we're moving on to Barbera. Also known- Alba or osti? Alba. yes, this is Barbera d'Alba. Barbera also known as the people's wine. It's a very productive variety. It's very versatile and widely planted in Northern Italy. Kind of ripens at this perfect time for producers in Piedmont. It ripens after Dolcetto, but before Nebbiolo so they can time all of their winemaking operations accordingly. It has this lovely naturally high acidity even when it's fully ripe. It's actually been brought to a lot of warmer climates around the world. Australia is growing it, Argentina is growing it, California is growing it. And we are now having the Franco Molino Barbera d'Alba 2018 for $14.99. And this is one of my go-to's when people came in and just wanted a very easy drinking, high acid, bright Italian wine to go with pizza, to go with takeout pasta. Something that has enough interest but you don't need to think too much about it. This was a great wine. Yeah, I agree. I think the toughest thing about Barbera is acid management. You can't let it over crop. You got to drop fruit or it'll be too acidic. It just won't ripen enough. And then a lot of people really want to send this through malolactic conversion to soften those acids. And it's still generally very bright. Yeah. Unfortunately, high yields are permitted for Barbera. So some producers kind of take advantage of that and produce insipid wines, as Greg might say, because the acid is just too high. But others like Franco Molino are doing wonderful things and tons of red fruit. It has a little bit of the spicy quality as well. Medium body, so easily consumed with or without food. And, you know, different producers are again doing lower yields, but also there actually have been some oak aged examples. So ask a wine consultant if you want to try one of those. That really caught on, I think, in the 80s. And some have been continuing to do it. So there are some structured, more age worthy Barbera's out there as well. I'm kind of unfamiliar with Barbera overall, but based on the nose of this, immediately, it seems like something that a Beaujolais drinker could could upshift to pretty easily. It's like that, except it has deeper, darker fruit. And then it's got this, I mean, this version has this like cola, herbal quality on the back end, which gives it a nice little twist. On the nose, it almost smells like it's carbonic maceration, like bananas, along with like darker raspberry fruit. But it's probably not carbonic maceration, right? It's not carbonic. It is fermented traditionally in stainless steel for about 10 days, and then they mature it in large French oak casks. And when we say large, we mean really large, like 1,500 to 3,000 liters, so massive, massive barrels for about 12 months. So they're just doing that for a little bit of oxidation and texture. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know anyone that does carbonic up there, but you're right to point out that the fruit quality is definitely in the red camp. It's very fresh and lively. Herbal notes for sure. And I mean, it smells Italian. So you get that for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think it's important to note that this area in general for red wines, it is not traditional to age in barriques or small oak barrels. The giant botis that you're talking about, made out of Slavonian oak, are used sometimes for decades and decades over and over, and they don't impart any oak flavor. But you're right, in the 80s there came along the modernist wave in both Barolo and some of the Barberas where small oak barrels became fashionable. And you definitely can still find Barbera made that way. Very big and bold and quite removed from what you're getting here, this kind of bright, easy drinking, food-friendly wine for every day. They can be very serious wines. As far as food pairing with Barbera goes, this is along with Dolcetto, kind of the everyday table wine for meals in this area. And it should be that way here, too. I mean, it is very versatile with food. That bright acidity makes it super food-friendly. So things that are fatty or need a little counterpoint to cut through, like just imagine kind of a real juicy Italian sausage with a lot of fat. And this would cut right through that. That'd be delicious. But it'll go with all kinds of meats and things like that, pastas. Without being too serious. Chicago-style deep dish. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, pizza is perfect for this kind of wine. You know, simple pastas, pizzas, anything slightly meaty, perfect for every day. A lot of people say that Barbera d'Asti is superior to Barbera d'Alba because a lot of the sites around the town of Alba are reserved for Nebbiolo. However, I think this wine kind of proves that to be untrue. I think this is a really, really nice Barbera for $14.99. And again, it's the workhorse variety of the region. There is no IGT up in Piedmont. It's all DOC or DOCG. The closest thing to an IGT, I guess, would be Piemonte DOC. So, you know, that's just to say this is your great value. Don't think that, you know, like in Tuscany, they were mentioning if you find a Tuscana IGT, that that's going to be kind of up there in Piedmont, because it's not. So I would go with this for sure. Yeah, I think that you're right. That normal rap is that good vineyard sites in Alba are going for Nebbiolo plantings. And so Barbera gets short shrift as far as the best vineyards. And Ostea, they dedicate some of their better vineyard sites to Barbera. But you're right, there can be excellent, excellent wines out of Alba. Well, let's go on to Dolcetto next. I have to admit, I was like, should we show Dolcetto or not in this podcast? Can't tell you the last time I bought a Dolcetto. So I'm hoping to be kind of pleasantly surprised. I've not tasted this wine yet, but we are drinking a Dolcetto from a great producer, Paolo Scavino. This is his Dolcetto d'Alba 2017. 50 year old vines here, so should have some nice concentration and complexity, but Dolcetto, known as the little sweet one. In the region, really known just to be this fruity red wine for early consumption. It's what they drink while they wait for the nebbiolo to come in. It's that word sweet that makes this sound confusing, because you hear Dolcetto, you think Dolce, and then you think dessert wines, and that's not the case at all. As Alicia said, the grape variety is Dolcetto, which means little sweet one, but that's referring to the way it tastes off the vine, not the finished wine. You can have a lot of sugar in a grape and ferment it out dry. But Greg, this is interestingly where historically I would have made the Beaujolais comparison to the Piedmont. I suppose so. I mean, your fruit is a little more like amped up here. It's a little more like grenadine, like pomegranate punching out. Yeah, I get a lot of licorice. There should be a lot of fruit to it. Very, very soft, subtle tannins. It's not a high tannin grape. And moderate acidity, unlike Barbera, it's much softer. Yep, it's a soft fruit plus herbs. It has this kind of plummy, round quality to it. The fruit is very plush, despite being an early ripening variety. I mean, the fruit is wonderfully ripe and very juicy. The acid is the big marker that differentiates it, I think, from Barbera. The body as well seems to be slightly more kind of velvety in texture, softer in texture. But it is, it's just a, it's a quaffable wine, pleasant. That means she doesn't like it that much. It's, it's, it's all right. Quaffable is one of those wine nerd wines that means forget about it. This is a very good example of Dolcetto for a reasonable price though. I mean, if this is what you're after, kind of soft, easy drinking wine with no challenging tannins whatsoever. That means he doesn't like it. That means I don't like it. Yeah, you guys are bad mouthing this with your faint praise. You are damning with your faint praise. Okay, let me back up. If you like Merlot, for example, then- Then go play in the freeway. That was extreme. No, you're right. It does have that soft, plummy kind of roundness to it like Merlot can have. Yeah. But you're not going to see again oak influence in these wines at all. Well, a lot of Merlot goes into French oak barrels, but here it's going to be stainless steel or boaty, and you won't get any of that going on. Just soft, plummy fruit. It's fine. It's fine. It's just easy going. Yeah. I mean, it's $14.99. That's it. Yeah. I was going to say you can cook with it, but don't leave that out. You can make sangria with it. It would be good with that. Delicious sangria. All right, Chris, end us on something positive. No, the wine is actually, it's quite nice, but it's just like, eh. This has been an old thing about wine criticism forever. You could have a 100-point wine and it's a Chateau Margot, and it's Cabernet and structured and elegant, but that's what it's supposed to be. Then can you have a 100-point Beaujolais? Can you have a 100-point Dolcetto? You have to appreciate it for what it is and what it's supposed to be. I completely agree. At the end of the day, what is the winemaker trying to do? Are they trying to give you a wine that you can actually afford and enjoy without looking at your credit card bill and be able to drink three glasses of it and not feel bad? This is that wine. I never got how value wines and wines that are supposed to be easier drinking fit into that model. I think the winemaker is just trying to figure out what the f*** he's going to do with all that Dolcetto. What's next? All right, we're moving on. It can play prominently in some of the Lange Rosas, you know, blended with Barbera or Nebbiolo, even some other things. That's a good point. In that case, it adds that kind of ripe, round, plummy fruit, and then the Barbera and Nebbiolo bring acid and structure to the wine. Yeah, it's like Merlot to Cabernet. Right. Yeah. But Barbera is not Cabernet, but same relationship. I remember one of the most rock and roll tannic monstrosities of wine I ever had was the Lange Nebbiolo, and it was just completely unrestrained and wild. I loved it, but also it was inappropriately tannic, just overblown. I never thought you could put a little bit of this in there and maybe make something a little more balanced. Sure. Well, Nebbiolo is notoriously tannic, and one of the things that people try to do when they make Nebbiolo is manage those tannins. I mean, it's very important. As a buddy wine nerd, all I could think about was heavy metal distorted guitar, rough, fuzzy texture. Can you pin that down to a particular guitarist or band? Like, sleep? Oh, man. Sludgy and heavy and slow. So speaking of managing tannins, we're gonna go into a wine that I gave myself a heavier pour than the Dolcetto on. This is the Produttori del barbaresco 2016 on our shelves for $39.99. Of course, 100% Nebbiolo here. I love this producer. They are so consistent, and they were actually originally the barbaresco Cooperative founded in 1894. So talk about some history here. Nebbiolo itself is a grape variety that has been known in the Piedmont region since the 13th century. Many believe the name derives from Nebia or fog, which is very frequent in October. When the grapes are picked, we mentioned it earlier, it's a very late ripening variety. So not only is it early to bud, which makes it prone to spring frost, but it's very late to ripen as well. It can be very fussy on the vine too, but Produttori has been making some of my favorite barbarescos for a long time. I could not agree with you more, Alicia. This wine is unbelievably consistent of remarkable quality and very reasonably priced. This cooperative, they own some of the great terroirs in barbaresco. This is an area that has mostly the Tortonian soils, which is shared by the western half of Barolo where you'll find Lamora and Barolo proper, which are known to make, historically they would say more feminine style, whereas Barolo is more masculine. But I think the thing that lifts this wine in quality is like, this is 2016, which was a really good year. But if they have a not so good year, all of the best fruit and juice goes into this bottling as a cooperative. In great years, they make nine, I think, nine or 10 different single vineyard offerings from individual growers that are part of the co-op. Those wines are super special too. In a great year, you got great fruit going into the basic wine, and then the single vineyards, and in an off year, you get all of the best vineyard sites going into this bottling. It just is remarkable. I always love this wine, but I have yet to taste it. This is a shocking step up compared to the last couple of wines we had. This wine is tremendous. Yeah, yeah, always is. Bright, bright fruit bursting just fresh red cherries, like a little bit of strawberry, and then like this, like, I don't know, I don't ever know how to say it, this herbal lift and this like uniquely Italian finish, the like acidic tannic finish on Yeah, and I think the tannins are also well managed here. Chris mentioned that barbaresco like parts of Barolo kind of have this lighter, sort of more feminine style. And so as a result, in Barolo, we have a shorter minimum aging requirement of 26 months with nine months in oak. And so with that, we do integrate tannins, we do settle in that kind of alcohol, and allow some oxidation to the wine, but not too much. And I think you're right, the acid and the tannin finish together on the palate. And you get all of those like dried rose petals, that baked kind of clay and tar that come with age. Typically, this is about four years old that will only get better. It's gorgeous. So yeah, we're up in barbaresco, one third the size of Barolo. The fruit tends to ripen a bit earlier here, speaking to that slightly lighter style that we're referencing. If you are able to find a barbaresco Riserva, we get even more aging kind of going into that. But really start to drink these. I mean, I think this is drinking well now, but give it another, what, four or five years, I think, you'll really start to see all of those tertiary aromas and flavors coming through. All of those dried fruit qualities, rather than fresh. The rose petals that we talked about will only become more dried and more layered. The licorice, the tar, the earth, and all the dried herbs. And when we talk about Italian wines, they kind of just inherently have these like thyme, rosemary scents to them that are uniquely Italian. And Nabiolo in particular is uniquely complex in its aromatic profile. That beautiful rose petal top note that you talk about. I just think that, again, I can't stress enough how gorgeous this wine is. When you talk tannin management, they're so present, but so fine and silky. It's a powerful wine, but they've managed to make it drinkable at a very young stage. I think it's just beautiful, especially if you're going to have food with this. In this area, they do something called Bolito Misto, which is like a bunch of meats kind of boiled together. That definitely a wine like this would work with that tannin and acid. It's just remarkable how well they do this. Yeah, when you guys are tasting wine next, and you will often hear us comment on the tannins, think about how the tannins actually feel. Try and put a word to their texture and grippiness or refined nature, because I think it's really important and it's a mark of quality. It's also a mark of just how well integrated they are in the wine. Some might be high tannin, but very coarse and sheeting and aggressive, and maybe even austere. But others, like the one that we're having now, the barbaresco, they're very fine grained and they just support the wine and give it great structure, and they're not just the defining component. So there's a lot to be said about tannin, and so just don't dismiss it because we're like, oh, the tannins are really high and I don't like high tannins. The nature of the tannin is very important. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's the quality of the tannin over the quantity. Although, Naviolo always has a large quantity, but we'll probably look at this a little more when we get to Barolo. But when you divide Barolo into traditionalists and modernists, if you want to do that, and there are lots of wineries that kind of fall in between, the quality of the tannins is quite different and they're both quite valid for the style. But in the traditional regime, you're going to see those pretty big and prominent tannins that need a long time in a bottle to round out. With the more modern take on things, they're really looking for a style more like this. It's plush and early drinking with darker color, less oxidation. So there's a lot of things going on with tannin management in this area. There are people that are just absolute adherence to the old way and people. The most interesting thing I think is the arc of what happened with the modernists, where they just dove into barriques and stuff like this. But over time, like a lot of places, actually we were talking about this last night, Alicia, where people have realized that all that new oak isn't always better. A lot of the modernists have gone on an arc where they've moved back to a middle ground between traditional and modern winemaking techniques, as far as barrel aging goes. Yeah. I think it's especially relevant in Barolo specifically, which we're going to move on to now. Just to frame that up a little bit more, historically, nebbiolo would be fermented and macerated for two months, which meant the wine needed a lot of time in bottle. Especially to those Americans that want to buy and consume immediately, and to wineries that want earlier cash flow, that was hard and they were losing traction. We got these modernists that Chris mentioned that wanted to make these fruitier, last tannic, more early drinking wines. Also, use French oak barriques, which are much smaller than the traditional approach, imparting more oak flavor. Then they realized, you're right, that nebbiolo can't handle that. It completely overwhelms all of the nuance that we just described in the grape variety. They found a happy medium, I think. You have some outliers, but I think for the most part, they're in a good spot now. Yeah, I agree. You look at producers like Elio Alteare and Domenico Clerico. I would include Paolo Scavino in this, but Scavino has definitely taken that path where jumped into that new wave style and has totally dialed it back and come down on a mid-ground here where the wines are somewhat modern in style but not completely All right, Chris, I'm going to let you introduce the next wine, so you can pronounce it correctly. Okay. So this is Paolo Scavino's Rocche dell'Annunziata. Riserva. Riserva, which is a single vineyard. This would be one of the so-called informal crews, one of the best vineyard sites in the area. It's from, let me see, it's from Lamora. So we're looking at that part of the territory that's closer to barbaresco, and it has the soil type that's similar to barbaresco, although Scavino is located, I think, in Castiglione, Fuleto, where the other soil type is. So they produce wines in both kinds of terroirs, but this is one of the top sites from Lamora. So we wanted to show a Barilla with some age on it, a Riserva, and most stores will be in our cellar. And so hopefully we can give you some information on this wine, if you are looking for that special bottle. It is not cheap, it's $190. However, you know, we all need a little reason to celebrate something. So if that's you, and hopefully we can describe what this aged Barilla tastes like well, so that you feel more confident shopping in the cellar, spending a little bit more money on these older wines. And I will say, you know, it's old, but not really that old. It's only seven years old. But after first sip, I think it's actually drinking beautifully right now. As Chris mentioned, the soils here are a little bit sandier, and so we get more aromatic expressions that are more accessible in their youth. And I think this does just that. On the nose, it's very graceful and a little bit understated. There's not a lot of fruit. There's a little bit of like, like Kirsch Likur, and then it's all herbal. It's almost like root beer. Yeah, there's, I find a lot of licorice in here, which is pretty normal for Nebbiolo. But also, yeah, some pretty beautiful subtle, as you say, fruit scents. The way Scavino treats this wine is to put it in barrel for Malolactic in Berrics, and then they age it in small neutral French oak for 24 months. And then to make this hybrid style, he puts it into larger neutral containers at the end of the affinage or aging. A real hybrid in style, and it's not supposed to have a ton of oak influence since most of the barrels are neutral. But then you get the kind of bulk oxidative, slightly oxidative aging at the end in those large boaty or stainless steel tanks. Again, I think they've done a really fantastic job making that more delicate, subtle style of Nebbiolo that is very silky and restrained in the way the tannins present themselves, which is not to say they aren't big because they are. I think actually the texture and the profile of the tannins, those are the two most kind of defining features of the wine. yes, we're seeing a lot more tertiary flavors and aromas, but the tannins compared to that kind of younger barberaresco we just had in their nature, they're so much smoother and they're just so like a part of the wine, laced up with the acid that the texture is just absolutely lovely. I think you said silky, I completely agree. It's ethereal, you want to smell it all day and it's beautiful. Yeah, not unlike a good burgundy, you could almost be satisfied sitting here smelling this. It's so fascinating and layered. I'm going to say this has only been in my glass for a little while, but it will change over time in your glass, show you new things, new layers will develop, and this clearly has a bright future. There's no way that this wine is not going to last another 20 years or more. It's shockingly grippy. It's classy though. Yeah. Well, compare this to something from Giuseppe Rinaldi or one of the real traditionalists, which really require tons of time in bottle before they come into their own. The tannins are so well managed here. Like I said, as you're noting, it's grippy and powerful, but they are very, very fine and super well managed. So there you have it. You have our vote to go ahead and splurge on this wine. I definitely vote yes. I would say we promise it's awesome. I do not think you will be disappointed. It's so lightweight up front. Like I want more heft. I think it's possible this wine will put on weight with oxygen and time and bottle. But I do think they're shooting for a more elegant style here. It comes from La Mora where the soils promote this more elegant style. Like Burgundian? Like we're looking for that kind of grace? Well, because of the soils, we're just getting a lighter and more aromatic expression. If you wanted something more powerful, more in your face, going to the townships of Montforte, is it Montforte or Montforte? Montforte. Paolo Scavino Barbera d'Alba and Sera Lunga d'Alba, those are going to have a little bit more weight and concentration to them and take even longer to show well with age. But I think this is a result of the place of the terroir and of winemaking that's respecting that. Yeah, that style. I totally agree with that. So this is a very expensive bottle and you're paying for this elegance and class. And these days, even though they're kind of unofficial, you'll see regional descriptions on bottles. So you can go to Binny's and buy, say, a Serralunga Barolo on the shelf for maybe $35. And you will find that the structure of the tannins is just huge compared to this, even at that low price point. The terroirs are just very different. And, you know, you just get much more power from the areas in the eastern part of the Barolo region. Yeah, and but to your point, Greg, you know, if you are a New World cab drinker, no, I don't think you're going to be satisfied with this wine. Burgundy drinker. If you appreciate the more kind of nuanced, elegant, kind of finessed wines that, yes, are like Burgundy, you will love this wine. I've had a handful of Barolo in the past, Baroli, and I think that this might be like the lightest and most graceful, the lightest on its feet of any I've ever had, which is really interesting. It still is like super tannic, but it dances instead of pounds, and I'm kind of used to Barolo the pounds. Yeah, this is definitely a very elegant style. I would just put a fine point on what you just said, just for those language weirdos out there. If you're speaking in Italian, it's not, I have six Barolo's or six barberesco's, it's, I have six Baroli barbereschi, so. Anytime you hear Pat say, he drinks Amaro's, he knows better. Yeah. Slap him, he knows better. It's vernacular English and it makes perfect sense, you know, so. So how dare you, Pat? Right? Come on, man, get it together. Amari, baby. Hopefully, whether you are buying Italian food for takeout or preparing your own, you have learned from the various varieties we've talked about today are nes, Barbera, Dolcetto, and of course, Nebbiolo. Hope you enjoyed the journey through the region. And also think beyond Nebbiolo. There is a lot of wine to discover. This really showcases the diversity of the region. I mean, you've got inexpensive white, sweet white all the way through some of the most expensive collectible red wines in the world and and everything in between. They do it all. All right. Thanks, guys. Kind of geeked out on northern Italian wines there, the wines of Piedmont. Alicia, Chris, thanks for sharing your passion for these wines. Everybody else hope you found something to love here. Thanks for listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Until next time, I'm Greg. I'm Chris. I'm Alicia. Keep tasting.