Welcome back. It's another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Chris, I work in wine here at Binny's. I'm Ray, I'm the wine manager at our Elmwood Park location. Today, we have a really special guest from Grgich Hills Winery in Napa Valley, Ivo Jeramaz. Ivo has joined us today. He did a really great seminar for our staff earlier. We've got a bunch of wines to taste through, and he's gonna talk about regenerative farming and the philosophy that's guiding Grgich Hills now, and maybe a little bit about the past because it's a super interesting story that this winery has. Ivo, what can you tell us? Well, first of all, thank you for having me here. My first trip to Chicago after five years, so it's good to be here again. You are quite welcome. We really are happier here. Thank you. So yes, we have illustrious history at Grgich Hills due to my late uncle, Mike Grgich. In 2023, he reached his goal to turn 100, but unfortunately, same year, December, we lost him. So what an amazing life. Indeed. So he was born in Croatia, at that time Yugoslavia, after second war, did not like communism. So he was looking for a way to escape and finally succeeded in 1954 and arrived here in Napa in 1958, worked for many notable wineries like Bivi, Robert Mondavi, and then Chateau Montalena. While at Chateau Montalena, his Chardonnay scored first place at famous Paris Tasting of 76. That was turning point for Napa, California and whole new world, proved that great Chardonnay or Cabernet can be grown outside France and gave a chance to these young upstarts in Napa Valley to really expand their business. Yeah, that really sent some shock waves to the business, huh? Absolutely. My uncle was interviewed by Time Magazine and overnight he became very known. Everybody wanted Mike to be their winemaker, but he decided to partner with Austin Hills and they opened a new winery, Grgich Hills Estate, in 1977. So, I also saw that there was another competition that your uncle won that happened to take place in Chicago. It was like the first great big Chardonnay-only tasting that I think was held. Was that 1980, the great Chicago tasting meeting? And so, it was his first Chardonnay 77 that he made for Grgich Hills that also won. There was competition for Chardonnays from any producing country. So, he did it second time. And after that tasting, he was named the King of Chardonnay. And that was, I believe it was 277 different wines and Grgich came out on top again. I wonder if Montelain was in there. Because they definitely retained his style after he left. You know, he set the tone there. Absolutely, yes. That's a really fascinating story. He's kind of a legend. And the interesting thing I think here is that you have these really old farming practices that are new again, and you're pretty passionate about it. And that came through in the seminar. I actually love what you said. I've been a big proponent of mycelium for a long time. I think there's a really, really underrated and super important part of any plant ecosystem, fungus. And can you tell us about regenerative farming? Yes, but before we go there, I would like to emphasize the fact that we are still family-owned and operated business. My cousin, after Mike passed away, my cousin Violet Grgich assumed leadership role. Mike's daughter? Mike's daughter, only daughter, and I'm nephew. So I'm in charge of grape growing and winemaking. Between Violet and myself, we have seven kids, and two already joined. So we already have three generations. We love what we do. We are driven by passion, and in our country, it's sacrilegious to sell family property, so we don't plan to do it. That's great to hear, because so many of the legendary Napa properties are snapped up by big concerns. You know, they're never quite the same. No matter what they say, you know, they retain the winemakers, they keep the owners on for a certain amount of time as consultants, but it's never the same. The family passion has got to be there, right? That's nothing worthwhile is achieved in life without passion. So we have plenty of that. Back to your original question about our farming, not only that we farm organically, regeneratively, but we are a hundred percent estate. When you buy Grgich Hills, you'll find a label says estate grown, which is very important. The most important ingredient in this business is our grapes. So if you control your vineyards and production, you are ahead. So my uncle was very wise that he bought all these properties, now total of 365 acres in five different vineyards in Napa Valley. 30 years ago when prices were reasonable today, you have to be billionaire to afford. Right. Napa, great Napa Valley vineyards. We are talking half million to $750,000 per acre. That's absolutely crazy. And yours span the entire length of the, of the Valley from- Yes. Carneros to Calistoga. Yeah. Wow, that's pretty impressive. You got a bunch of different microclimates. Correct. Napa Valley is only 45 miles by five to six miles wide. And we are lucky to have vineyards from very south to very north Napa. Basically temperature difference is dramatic. Could be 10 to 15 degrees warmer in mid Napa than south Napa. So all whites are in south Napa where it's cooler than Cabernet in middle Napa, Zinfandel in north Napa. And these are all biodynamically farmed, correct? Yes. So when I took over in grape growing, so coming to United States, I'm also Croatian immigrant and I hated communism as much as my uncle and was still Yugoslavia when I lived there. And after obtaining degree in engineering, so I'm mechanical engineer by training, I desperately wanted to leave. My uncle was so kind and a guarantee for me and helped me move to United States in 86. So I started working for him in 86. Quickly fell in love with the wine making, grape growing. And I thought I'll study day and night and become best winemaker in the world. Only took me five years to realize the secret of great wine is not in a great winemaker, but in how you grow your grapes. So I switched my effort to studying soil, microbes. And then by 2000, we basically turned all our management, vineyard management to organic farming. We started binomic farming in 2003, certified in 2006. Then still after 20 years of this kind of farming, there were still problems with diseases, nutrition. And then we rediscovered regenerative farming in 2019. So today, we also certified regenerative organic certified, starting with 2003 vintage. That's awesome. And so this would really be the next step beyond biodynamics for improving not only the soil health, but the entire ecosystem, which also includes the people that work within that ecosystem. Yes. So there are some cynics that ask me, oh, you guys at Grgich Hills, every few years, you switch to a different management system for publicity. I understand the question, but when we look at what was wrong with Bionomic and why that wasn't enough, if you remember those years, 15, 20 years ago, when Bionomic came to the United States and you read Wine Spectator and they wrote an article about Bionomic Farm, who was poster boy on that front page? Horse, ploughing soil. And so one leading principle of regenerative farming is that you do not plough your vineyard because you lose soil, you disrupt mycelium that you fondly talked about a minute ago. So that's why it changed. Needless to say, this is nothing new. This is a natural system. It's been around about 430 million years ago. We did not invent anything. What we practice at the Grigach Hills is called biomimicry. We mimic nature. Only nature is perfect. We think we are so smart humans and that we can force nature to perform, according to our wishes. Nature doesn't need us. Actually, nature operates far better without humans. Biodynamics was originally pretty controversial. I remember when it first came to the fore here that people would get into like screaming matches about it, like these big heated debates. This is about farming practices. Have you found the same kind of pushback or are people more accepting of it now after we have organics and then biodynamics? That was the reason why my uncle told us to remove a certificate and stop talking about it, because there was such a controversy. And the problem of that was similar like we have today, polarization. If you are a biodynamic zealot, everybody else is an enemy. You are killing soil, you are killing people, which is not true. So we want to include everybody. Today, when I promote regenerative farming, those chemical farmers are not my enemies. They are my brothers. I've tried to convince them. Move them in slowly. They don't have to... Let's start slow. And that's the only right way to convert people, not to be black or white. So you don't get into fights with your neighbors if they're using chemical pesticides? So I use my reason, and I'm a pretty logical person. And my biggest tool is look what we are doing and look also cost. What was paradoxical for them is that we are far more profitable. It costs far less to farm this way. So that should be anybody who is in business wants to make some money, not lose money. One thing that really struck me during the seminar was when you talked about how your vineyards would absorb all that torrential downfall like a sponge and it didn't have to be runoff, which is another huge problem when you work chemically is if you You are not tilling at all and you are growing cover crops too, right? So secret of this farming is basically symbiosis between our plants, grapevines and also 20 to 28 different species of grasses, legumes, brassicas. They have to be at least four functional families of plants. So these green growing plants, they produce carbohydrates to something called photosynthesis. We learn all about that in high school, I hope. And it's very useful because without photosynthesis, there's no life on earth. We should all know about it. And then what is remarkable that 50% of these simple sugars called carbohydrates are used to feed microbes. What are microbes? Three major categories are bacteria, protozoa and fungi. Fungi is the most important. So plants feed, give energy through carbon to these microbes in exchange for nutrients and protection. And its system has been well working well for 430 million years ago. And then we came humans 100 years ago and we invented chemicals. And so we're going to do better than nature. It's not possible. I hope you can evangelize and get some more people on board because it would be great to have the Valley convert to this style of farming. It's a mindset. Hardest thing to change in people in mindset. Farmer was talking to other farmer and about compaction. And Vice Farmer said, our biggest compaction is between our two ears. Because, you know, when you have compacted soil, it's dysfunctional soil. Well, so that would be the argument for tilling, right? That you have compacted soil, but you can do things to mitigate that, right? I mean, the cover crops and maybe not using heavy machinery between the aisles and stuff. Is that true? Absolutely. But the main thing is creating functional soil, which is well structured. Well structured soil, as I said many times, is like sponge. Sponge holds water, but also when you squeeze it and depress it, it comes back to same. Versus compacted soil, it's compacted. There is no pore. Compacted soil means there is no air pores. Perfect soil has to be 50%, nothing, meaning air pores. That's what creates room for water and air. All these microbes also, they need oxygen, so you need to create porosity in soil. It's kind of simple, but also very complex. Right. When you have compacted soils and it rains heavily, the rain just runs away. If you till, California is famous for torrential rains and mudslides. It's a very graphic depiction of how erosion can work in a pretty radical way. You're absolutely right. You come to our neighbor's property and I had the video when we had one day seven inches of rain in less than 12 hours. In our vineyard, there is not a single drop runoff. Our neighbor, actually, water is coming to our vineyard, all brown water carrying his topsoil, so I've forced him to take his soil back after that. I don't want it. Come over with a shovel. Yeah, and so possibly 70% of that rain, not only that went to Napa River, then to ocean, it was muddy river, so took the most fertile soil in a couple of inches. Imagine Ross, how many tons of soil he lost that day. Did it force him to change his practices at all? The way he's always done it. You would think that would be a great example that you could use to pry his compacted mind open. Open. Anyway, should we taste some wine? Of course, yeah. All right, I think we're going to start with the 2021 Fumé Blanc, right? Yes. So we also, on our label, it says Souvenon Blanc and small letter Fumé Blanc. And so many young people have no idea what the heck is Fumé Blanc, but there's a reason for the name. When my uncle joined Robert Mondavi, there was hard to sell Souvenon Blanc in those 60s, and Robert invented this name, Fumé Blanc, Fumé meaning smokey, blank, white, and became instantaneous. Actually, my uncle made that wine, Mike Grigich, for Robert Mondavi, and became big hit. So when my uncle opened winery with Austin Hills in 77, he just took name. Sure. It wasn't trademark or anything like that. That's the only significance. Some people believe Fumé Blanc means that some different technique to make Souvenon Blanc. There's no different technique, it's just a name. So this Souvenon Blanc comes overwhelmingly from American Canyon vineyard. Most people are aware with Carneros location. This is like four or five miles southeast, two degrees cooler than Carneros. So this is our coolest vineyard. From our this vineyard, we see San Francisco Bay. There's always strong breezes, more fog than ever. In a typical summer day, you won't see sunlight before one o'clock. Yeah, I mean, the cool climate really shows through in this wine. It's brisk, it's vibrant, it feels alive. It's an exciting Sauvignon Blanc. Yes, I agree with all of that. And the thing that really jumped out at me when I first had this wine was the surly aging that really gives it that texture and roundness that you wouldn't necessarily get from such a cool climate. Yeah, I thought it was really beautiful. Yeah, I agree. There's a freshness of brightness, but a richness on the palate at the same time. Yes, and so very important to grow Sauvignon Blanc in this cool climate. What is also very important is that we do not use any commercial yeast. So we carry on this philosophy of how we grow grapes into cellar. So least intervention, best. Today you have these big stars, wine maker and there's interventions. Today you have 50 or 100 additives that you can put in wine, but that's to make alcoholic beverage, not to make high class. Right. So all our wines are fermented with native yeast, which are thousands of them every year. And then you mentioned Surly. That's something unusual. Most people ferment Sauvignon Blanc, bottle it and sell it by December. So our Sauvignon Blanc sits on Surly for those listeners that are not familiar with this term. After wine is fermented, there's so many, so billions and billions of yeast per every meal of wine. They typically fall in the bottom. And then we kind of stir them and through process, so autolysis, they fall apart and impart flavors. You mentioned that the creaminess, richness. Yeah, it really struck me when I tasted it for the first time this morning. I think it really makes this wine kind of special in the world of Sauvignon Blanc that is clearly different than a lot of other things that are out there. One question I did have that I didn't get a chance to ask earlier. You said when you ran tests, there was usually one or two yeast strains that were dominant. I was wondering, do you find a consistent winner from year to year or is it just every year is just totally different? Totally random, that's beauty of this. So, wine can be made like Coca-Cola, per formula, and every Coca-Cola is same, we don't taste Coca-Cola. So, many commercially made wines like that, very good alcoholic beverages. Many people drink them without thinking, nor nothing wrong with that. If you want to make really world class wine that is considered by many consumers a piece of art, you have to use these native yeast. So, with today's genome topping, we can see which kind of yeast we have in our wines. So, typically we start with thousands and thousands strains. By the end of fermentation, there's one or two dominant strain and every year is different. So, that's not the main reason why vintage is different. From vintage to vintage, we have differences, but it imprints, put on that vintage. Yeah, that's fascinating, because there's no way to replicate the aromatic esters that this vast array of yeast can produce with single strains. I mean, you might find klekara or dekara-type things fermenting early, saccharomyces taking over later. Until somebody puts in a little bottle, a thousand-strain yeast blend, it's impossible. And, of course, it's part of the vineyard, it's part of the environment. They're supposed to be there, and they are the yeast that are going to be efficient at fermenting the grapes that they're on. They are really there, they are adapted to those grapes. They are there for a reason. So, just like we are so dumb, we harvest wheat, and then take our outside coat out and make it into white. Yeah, we just all, why we should eat that wheat is that husk that is all the minerals, we remove them, yeah, so something here. Nutrients are overrated. Shall we try Chardonnay? Absolutely. So this is really the wine that put your uncle on the map and your winery on the map. So it must hold a very special place in your heart. Is it your favorite or is it going to be like your children? Yeah, just like children, I would never declare which one is my favorite. But between you and me, when you have kids, one that gives you most trouble, that prodigal son, it's kind of one that you kind of cherish. All these good ones that they complain, but I done everything right. And he did this or she did that. And yet, so anyway, so that's why, so non-blanc is a bit more difficult variety. And, but I love them equally, but I love them all. This is a really classic expression of Chardonnay in my opinion. I thought it was a really interesting discussion about the malolactic treatment here, because a lot of people do think of the iconic Montalena style and Grgich Hills style as being blocked malolactic, but that's not entirely true, right? It was true when Mike made Chardonnay and Montalena, but there was different times. And today we allow partial malolactic, still majority of that malic acid is still in wine, but we shave like rough edges. If we leave 100% malic acid, wine can be a bit sharp, because malic acid is a sharp acid. And then when you put malolactic, a tiny bit through malolactic, there's a different aromas. You get this toasty, hazelnut aromas that we like, a little bit so-called secondary fermentation aromas. It's, so we have still freshness, acidity, vertical tension is there. Tension must be in white wine, and that what creates nice aromatics and also leaves very long and pleasant aftertaste. You can measure success of wine, measuring seconds, how, for how many seconds you can feel that wine pleasant. It has to be pleasant, could be miserable feeling for a minute that you don't want that. Well, I found it interesting during the seminar. You said your uncle would add a little bit of RS afterwards for the wines that had the screaming acidity to kind of round it out and flush it out a little bit, but that you have found a way to kind of recreate or replicate the style without adding We doubt it. Our wine is bone dry, less than one gram, typically two grams per liter. It's considered dry. Our reds are next, almost zero, because we do not want to have any sugar because of bread and other stuff. Why it's probably one gram or less, no sugar in it? Well, when the new labeling laws come out and you put the amount of grams per liter of sugar, people look at it and say, oh, look, this is a low sugar wine. That's very, very popular in the wine world. I mean, these are the real better for you wines. Honestly, you got this whole new category of better for you wines where it's maybe lower alcohol, moderate sugar, et cetera, et cetera, but made through manipulation and modern techniques, sometimes spinning cone, pulling out some alcohol, these kind of things. But this is the natural version of how to make a better for you wine. Honestly, when you talk about mindful wines, this is truly mindful winemaking. You've obviously thought a lot about what you do and how it impacts not only you, your family, but your neighbors, your community, and everyone else. And you stated how important it was that we're all in this together and that we should be doing things that help all of us, that benefit everyone, because the old rising tide lifts all boats. To that point, I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but I think it's important that you address the part of regenerative farming that impacts your workers, because I think this is a whole other level of responsibility and really something that needs Well, thank you for asking that question. There's a few differences between organic certification and regenerative certification. First one is no till. Second one is inclusion of animals, animal husbandry. So at Grigich, we rent 4,000 sheep and they graze every vineyard at least once, most vineyards twice between December and April. Third pillar of regenerative organic certification is paying your field worker, farm worker's fair living wage, which is not required by any other certification. And so you can see here, there is social justice. It's not just maximizing profit. It's not just getting something cheapest way. So this really resonates and it's smart because we have 41 vineyard worker every day working on the fields. There's 41 pairs of eyes. When you respect them and they respect you and your farm, most important job of farmer is to observe. And I cannot observe with one pair of eyes, five vineyards every day. So there's a very valuable in a long run pace handsomely because in our farming, so there's a three management styles. There is reactive management styles, proactive and predictive. So the reactive style of management is basically you have disease and spray. That's already late. Your crop is already destroyed. But that's today's more than agriculture is that. Then there is proactive that you see that there is a pest coming in your neighbors and you spray or something or do something about it. And that's predictive. You set up everything in motion that disease has no interest coming to your property. So we are trying to move there. To be there, you need to observe. And so these guys are so valuable. And they are artists and they are my heroes. So I'm happy that we can support them through this way. Does anyone work harder, honestly? I don't think so. So a few years ago, my son will kill me, but hopefully he doesn't listen to your podcast. I'm going to send him an email. So he was 16, incredibly bright. He was probably brighter than any of the teachers there. And so he said, what's the point? I know more than these teachers. So he had like 17 Fs in one time, mostly not so Binny homework. So that summer I said, okay, we'll change things a little bit here. So you are to show up every day, 5.30 in the morning, and work with these guys for two months. I had to do it. And then not only that, he survived that. We had to write essay. And I still remember what most things striking me is he thought it was most miserable job. He was really vomiting, having to work in 95 degree heat, all these smells. And he said in his essay, what I couldn't understand, these people work 10 hours every day in these miserable conditions, this miserable God forsaken work. And they sing, oh, they're so happy. And I said, well, you see that you can enjoy in editing. So this is remarkable. It's not like they are working in silence, angry. They work happy. That for me, that spirituality shows in grapes. Yeah, fair wages and also a safer working environment without poisons being sprayed around them all the time. You know, I mean, how could that be bad? I spent two hours picking grapes once. Oh no, right? I was like, yeah, okay. I'm good on this. Literally back breaking labor. Yeah, a big salute to anyone who does that job and can do it every day for 10 hours a day. It's something that is definitely admirable. And they deserve a fair living wage. There's just no two ways about it. 100%. So thank you for that. We all benefit. We have happy workers that help us produce most incredible grapes, which is 100% obviously reason for our quality. Should we talk a little bit about this Zinfandel and Zinfandel in general? Because once again, your family history is wrapped up in this pretty deeply, and it's a really interesting story. When my uncle arrived to California in 58, it was 9 p.m. and they put him, shot a sewer and he got first job, put him in a small cottage, and he woke up bitterly next morning and took a walk, and he started rubbing his eyes. He thought he never left Croatia because he was surrounded with Zinfandel grapes, and they looked to him exactly as Croatian plow at Smali. For next 40 years, he tried to prove that the origins of Zin were in Croatia. At that time, Zin was called mystery grape. Everybody knew that Chardonnay, Cabernet came from France, Riesling from Germany, St. Gevesi from Italy. Zin was obviously Winifera, European variety. It had to come from somewhere, but nobody knew where from. Then in 2001, two professors from the University of Zagreb, and Carol Meredith, professor at UC Davis, California. Famous ampullographer, identifies a lot of grapes. She went there for six months, and they finally found 1719 plants of this variety, look a little different than native Plavac Mali. So mind you, my uncle thought that Plavac Mali equals Zinfandel. So he was mostly right, but wrong in that sense. So it was discovered that Zinfandel indeed was from Croatia, and the name was Tsarlyenak, hard pronounced for you guys. Yeah, how many consonants in a row is that? Like four? Many. I've preferred Trivedaga. And then we found out that Plavac Mali that we have today, actually make in our vineyard in Croatia today, it's offspring, just like Cabernet Sauvignon was created by cross-pollination between Sauvignon Blanc, white variety, and Cab Franc. The Plavac Mali was created by cross-pollination of white variety called Dobrychich and Tsarlyenak. So today's Plavac Mali is offspring, but the original Zinfandel first was called Tsarlyenak, and then they found historical data dating back 400 years. At that time, Tsarlyenak was called Tribidag. So today's official name is Tribidag. And so in Croatia today, it's mostly labeled that way, Tribidag? Because I read that there's maybe 65 hectares now, and that they had to get most of that plant material from California. Yes, they took plant material and cleaned it because it was full of viruses. One of the reasons why it was abandoned probably was more susceptible to viruses. It's a relatively small area, and they will quickly abandon it again because we found out that it produces miserable crop. Miserable in terms of quantity. Right, right. So our production is like half ton per acre. Economically disastrous amounts of grapes. So originally, I thought Celienak disappeared because Plavac Mali had superior tonnage. Right. And in those days, people obviously care deeply how much they get. Off in the way of the world. Quality is outstanding, but just again, very low yield. Right, and you have this planted in Calistoga. Yeah, so when UC Davis did this, they brought some cuttings through UC Davis and cleaned them, took them five years to clean them. We got just one plant. Then I grew that plant for a few years, collected budwood, and gradually planted two acres. Now we have two acres, literally eight feet apart, Zimhondal versus Celienak or Tribidrog, and totally different vines. So after 150 years apart, you can barely recognize the same variety and same genetics. Genetically, they are identical. It shows you what Tarawak can do. Yes, that's right. So let's try this in. So one thing that struck me when I tried this is I started drinking wine in the late 80s, and my career really started in the early 90s. And back then, I drank a lot of Zimhondal because it was generally well-made. You had a lot of classic producers, and as someone in his 20s, I could afford it. And then the style changed, and it became bigger. It's always been an alcoholic wine, but over 15% was a rarity when I first started drinking it, but then it became the norm. And this was kind of a throwback to me of the Zimhs that I started to drink. Really, the first wine I started drinking seriously, and gave me a real good foundational layer for my career in wine. So yeah, thanks for making an old school Zimh. Yeah, this is what they used to call the Claret style, right? It's more classically proportioned. It's not full of raisiny, overripe flavors, it's focused and bright. Yeah, so Zin is the hardest variety to make very elegant wine because by nature, it tends to have raisins, and raisins means high sugar, high sugar means high alcohol, so it's very hard to keep it. Ours is slightly below 15 alcohol, but as you mentioned, most Zimmadels today are 16 or 17%. There's a funny story. A couple of years ago, there was this group of serious wine lovers, connoisseurs that do regular tastings. And so a guy who organized the tasting was Pinot Noir tasting. He put our Zin as a ringer, and guess what? Our Zin won. That doesn't surprise me. A lot of times, a really elegantly made Zin does have some Pinot-esque qualities, that aromatic lift. Out of this, I get a lot of cinnamon in the nose. I'm telling this story because you mentioned elegance. So it's lots of qualities that we like in Pinot you can find in our Zin. So it's a lighter style, intentionally, and there is many people that prefer this over high alcohol. Well, and also just absolutely superior at the table compared to that other style. Are there any other producers of Zin that you like that you would compare yourself to? Two days ago. They also make lower alcohol. So how do you make lower alcohol? Basically when you pick. So try not to have too many raisins. Again, raisins, even though this is paradoxical. So you go and taste and every winemaker do that. So you taste berry, 23, 24 and a half, okay. And then there is a couple raisins on the same cluster. So you take that raisin. Oh my God, it's godly. It's 33 bricks. What can you do with 33 bricks? So there's a limit what we taste and what kind of wine we make. So that I can guarantee you if you make everything is 32 bricks, first of all, we have to dilute. No yeast can ferment that. But eating is one thing and making wine. So sometimes winemakers don't understand that. Diluting, by the way, that's watering back. We're adding water. Or as they like to call them in California, Jesus units. Yeah, but sometimes it's necessary because everything is right and then you have 105 degree and the water evaporates. And basically there's a huge, you have 24 bricks, now it's 27. It can happen in Zinn overnight. Do you think a lot of winemakers, it's easier for them to make a bombastic style because Zinfandel is an uneven ripening varietal. So it's just easier to make, to pick later because you know what you're going to get. There's many reasons for high alcoholic Cabernet and Zinfandel, but maybe 10, 15 years ago, some wine writers loved that very ripe style. And basically if you are caught with any hints of methoxyparasite, hints of greenness, you got 80 points. And so wine makers were terrified and they would rather over-ripen than have being accused of having a green component in your wine. Right, what a shame to have a varietal character in a Cabernet, right? That's a very shame, yeah. And so that was the time when so-called international style of Cabernet was, and poor sommeliers, they struggle mighty. You're supposed to study and easily recognize, oh, this is Cabernet from Chile, this is Cabernet from Napa. No, that international style was all same. So they destroyed what was most cherished, different, viva la difference, and there's no more difference. Sure made blind tasting harder. Very hard. Anyway, really beautiful expression of Zinfandel. Yeah, for those looking for the old school style of Zin, this has definitely got it in spades, and a reliable producer of that style, vintage in and vintage out. Indeed. Now we have a few Cabernets. Should we jump right in? Yeah, I have already 19. How about we do both 19s? First one is Napa Valley Cabernet, which is mostly Yantville and Rutherford and tiny bit Calistoga grapes blended together. And our typical Napa Valley Cabernet is about 90% Cabernet, and then we do always a bit Petit Verro, Cab Franc, and maybe sometimes Merlot. Versus Yantville is one single block. We are blessed to have 25 acres of oldest Napa Valley Cabernet planted in 59. And we use best block to make this Yantville selection. So for us, selection is not best three barrels are 100. It's the oldest vineyards. Right. I found this very fascinating. It's a remarkable contrast, but also a noticeable house style, I thought. Yeah. We make a Cabernet that is probably a bit different than most Napa Valley producers. We don't make fruit bombs. We pick ripe, but not overripe Cabernet, and you get strong fruit components with good structure. So this Cabernet, we typically age almost two years in barrels and two more years in bottles. So this is 2019. We won't release for a while 2020. So minimum needs that kind of age. If you have patience and put a few barrels aside, you'll be rewarded after 10, 15 years. So all these wines can last, not last. And I wouldn't say improve, because improving mean was bad, now it's getting better. It's just like us. Change. If you're 20, now you're 40, are you improve or not? Depends. My vertical leap is down to half inch. And I used to- It's much better than mine. I used to dunk, yeah. But I feel like I have so much more wisdom than 20 years ago. Right. Well, it's trade-off, right? It's trade-off, yeah. Yeah, I find older wines interesting because people do have a misconception about what's happening and what to expect from them. They think that if a wine is good when it's young, it's going to get better, but they don't understand what better means in their own mind, like just more of the same. But they evolve and change and develop into wholly different animals after time. Again, I laud you for this really ripe fruit, but restrained style. I mean, these are classically styled Cabernets. They are not Napa Valley fruit bombs. And they're really pretty. Thank you. And that's style that we always like. Now it looks like that's becoming main style in Napa Valley. Everybody's picking a bit earlier, making vines with low alcohol. Used to be fruit bombs, very alcoholic, fruit for the vines, and I say there's nothing wrong. If a consumer likes it, who is to say that they are wrong? They buy what they like. But our style is different. And then because of that structure, and also I might say with good acidity, even red wine have to have touch acidity because there's no freshness. When you cook sweets, you don't put just sugar. You have to balance it with some acidity. And that's even a great red wine, red wine like a Barne has to have some acidity. I totally agree. There's freshness and lift here. And the tannin structure is so remarkably fine. But there's plenty of tannin here. These are going to age, no doubt, because of both that acidity and a fair amount of tannin, but just it's like so smooth. Yeah, it's not drying. So when we're talking about tannin, we're talking about quality of tannin, not just amount. Just like sandpaper, there's a rough sandpaper, and there's a fine sandpaper. This is very fine sandpaper, ultra fine. You can tell from tasting these wines that they're clearly meant to age, that the intention here is that they will continue to evolve and change into something else, not necessarily get better, as you said, but get to be different. As wines age, they become more savory, and you either like that component or you don't. But I think these are great in that you can tell that they're meant to age, but they're still fresh and they have good fruit and definitely drinkable at a young age. Yeah, I mean, there's a clear generosity of fresh fruit flavors, not jammy, not overripe. It's all blackberry, creme de cassis. It's richness without heaviness. I think they're pretty delightful. And the old vine version definitely amps up the roundness and texture. Layers, I find multi-layers, it's amazing that it's creminus and heaviness. Density of wine is there, it's clear. That's why there's no substitute for old vineyards. Right. It is the acidity that really makes these fresh, I think, and makes them food-friendly wines. You can tell that the winemaker here is interested in food and wants you to drink them with food because, you know, wine makes food better and food makes wine better. And both make life better. So that was always our philosophy in Croatia. Again, wine is considered food. You don't pay taxes on wine. And I personally only drink when I'm eating something. I don't drink before, I don't take glass or two before and after. So if that's the case, wouldn't you want to make wine to complement food? So basically wine is supposed to elevate food and food is supposed to elevate wine. Right. And you're working with 65 year old vines here. I thought it was really interesting what you were saying about the inability of people to maintain vineyards for very long and the amount of attrition that happens in vineyards because of a number of factors. Can you talk a little bit about that? Main reason is excessive use of chemicals. So the vineyards that are planted in Napa Valley, very few can get to 20 years old. Now there are some that are only eight years old and removed because of viruses. So viruses don't kill grape vines. They impart quality and quantity of grapes. If you have pale cabernet with 17 bricks instead of 25, nobody is gonna buy that and you have to rip it. And can you imagine only after eight years? This is disastrous and there is a remedy. Remedy is no spray. The remedy is not changing genetics. The genetic engineer remedy is farming. With this kind of farming, basically, we do this old vinyard does have some viruses. They don't influence quality or quantity of grapes. So I don't care that. Right, you were saying you were getting three and a half tons out of this. 3.2 tons. 3.2? I mean, that's good yields. I mean- It's Napa Valley average. And this is, I'm competing against 10-year-old, average Napa Valley cabernet is 10 years old. Remarkable. Well, I mean, if there isn't a clearer illustration of what these farming techniques can do and how detrimental chemical-based farming is, it's longevity. I mean, you're obviously not creating a healthy environment if you have to replant every eight or 10 years. That's not- No, it's such a waste. So all these infrastructures, stakes, pole, wires, you have to destroy because we cannot pull one by one and save it and all destroyed and then you have to buy all new and apply it. What a waste of energy. Yeah, it's crazy. And then like, I'm sure you, the way you propagated your Sirlignac, through like a mausoleum selection, is that how you would put a new vine into this older vineyard? Yes, so we did some replanting recently and we are using these new Robert Young, not Robert Young, but rather old venti clones we got from Larry Hyde. And selecting them from our vineyards. We don't even care for viruses because we're not afraid of viruses. And what has changed now, we only plant deep rooted rootstocks, not shallow rooted like we were advised last 20 years. Then in many years or most years, you don't have to water. They have so much access to food and nutrients and water. And by doing that, they're under less stress, they can fend these diseases. So we will never beat virus with any kind of the medical solution. We can beat virus by having immunity and healthy plants. And that old Wente clone, Chardonnay, that's a California trooper, right? It is brought here by Wente family, who knows 150 years ago. When I visit Burgundy, it's on my, I take picture of those clusters, identical, chickens and hens. It's identical, takes four to five clusters in a pound. So we have something, clone four, that UC Davis clean, and one cluster could be half pound. And so you obviously have quantity, no flavors. And so these are for us, for our style, best, because they have incredible flavor, structure and good acidity. Right. Chicken and hens, for everyone, that's tiny little grapes and big old grapes, on the same cluster. Berries, berries, yeah. We have one aged wine to give us an example of how well these wines age. Yes. So, 10, 15 years ago, we built a special warehouse with good alarms, temperature controlled, and generator because in California, our power company likes to turn our electricity off anytime they dream. It's a hot and fire prone day. And right now, if you come to that warehouse, you will find about 25,000 cases of Cabernet that are over 10 years old. So, we see value in leaving behind some of these Cabernet and reselling them after 10 years. So, is it always 10 years after the vintage or do you taste the wine and see where it's at, like say Chateau Latour right now only releases wine that they deem ready to be consumed? We believe that every palate is different. So, if I taste and it's good for me, does it mean that it's good for you? You might like them five years earlier. So, we don't have that tasting but we release them after 10 years. According to what we know about our wines, definitely they gained bouquet. When wine is young, like this first Cabernet. Oh yeah, this is hugely expressive. Yeah, the nose just burst even with a glass on this. So, basically when you have four-year-old Cabernet, you detect, might be Cassis, you detect raspberries, blackberries. After 10 years old, all that mingles in. Like compare that beautiful orchestra. There's 40 instruments. You don't hear one violin or flute. You hear unifying voice. I'm getting a little oboe. A little oboe. I don't know. So, let's age it a bit longer then. I don't want you to recognize any instrument. Only unifying music. I only hear the double-readed instruments right now. What was the first vintage that you started your library program with? Big vintage about, I would say, 2003. So, this is exactly time when we came to the estate. Before, we would buy grapes and there would be different grapes almost every year. So, I was embarrassed, you know, tasting our wines for five years, ten years vintage retrospective versus other winery that uses only one vineyard. Of course, every year it's not a variation of climate. It's different grapes. So, we didn't care leaving much of those. Once we came to the estate and we only made cabane from this vineyard, then we started leaving. So, 2003 was our first big vintage that we left behind. So, right now you have 2003 through 2009 available. Actually, this year we just released 2014. Oh, okay. Then let's say we have 1,000 cases that we left behind after 10 years, we release them 10 years after harvest, then we want to sell down to 10 cases for 20 years. So, we sell small amounts only, 1 twentieth of total amounts. We don't want to sell everything one year. I don't notice any difference in the labeling here. Do you mark them as library selections anyway? No, it's the same label. Yeah. It's the same label. Because I know some wineries have this program and they'll put library selection right on it. I'm pretty sure if you see 2009... Yeah, you probably should know. You should know that's library. Unless there's like a half inch layer of dust on it. Well, you can tell that this came directly from the source because it definitely is still fresh. You would not believe if you were just given this blind that it's close to 15 years old. Yeah, I mean, this is the value of so-called ex-chateau releases. Blinds that have never left their place of origin and have rested comfortably for years. Yeah, that's very important. Incredible, yeah. And then there's a little difference. We discussed this earlier. In those days, we were looking for power, and let blame me, and now I'm wiser, older, and I'm looking more for finesse and elegance over power. There is definitely a market difference in style, but I think this would be very appealing to a lot of consumers. You're absolutely right. These wines are very sought after, and many restaurants cannot afford to buy 20 cases of this great vintage and store them for 10 years. They have no room, so they very appreciate the guarantee that they were properly. That's important. You buy some old wines from secondary market, who can guarantee they were stored properly? That's exactly true. You never know where they've been, how many times they've changed hands, how they were stored, even if you think you know the provenance. Here it's unquestioned, and I can attest, and I think Ray would agree, that this is in remarkable shape. It's really pristine, and you can really tell the difference when it's just coming straight from the source, and has been properly cared for. Well, Ivo, is there anything else you'd like to enlighten us about? Well, again, thank you for inviting me here. It was fun. You're very passionate. That's why we do this. If we are selling two by fours, we are successful, but there's no excitement. Making great wine and sharing it, that's the key, sharing it. You can never enjoy great wine without great company. And so many people now say, oh, one drop of alcohol is bad. You look at history and I'm not sure if it's antioxidants or whatever, but this is what we need. We need to be friends to each other. And I think that's much easier to achieve when you have a bottle of great wine that you can share. And this great wine uplifts you. Just like if you go to opera or museum and the great art uplifts you, makes your life better. So that's how I see wine. I don't see wine as a glass of wine to get drunk. We don't advocate that you drink wine to get drunk, but rather to learn about it and enjoy it. And there's nothing wrong with a little bit of conviviality. Yes. Sharing is caring. Well, we really, really appreciate you being here. You have so many fascinating stories and I'm totally on board with this regenerative farming. I love what you're doing and I hope you can spread the word. I will. Thank you. Yes. And I can safely say after having met you today, you are my second favorite Croatian after Toni Kukoc. Uh-oh. Sorry, Toni won three championships. I can safely say that Toni Kukoc is my favorite Croatian. But you could dunk at one time, right? So I think I played, Toni was nine years younger than me and so he was incredibly talented and great generation. So I was fourth league and he was first league, of course. But I can claim that I played once again before he was known. Amazing. Well, you're a relatively tall drink of water, as they say. Yeah, in Croatia, we are tall guys. So my late uncle was five foot three. The people wouldn't believe him. He said, you're not Croatian, you're too short. And he said, there was nine kids before me. I was number 11, last one. So my parents ran our juice. That's all they can produce. That is the basis of regenerative farming. Yes. Eleven children. Well, at least he could fit into a Yugo then. Yes. Thanks for joining us on another episode of Barrel to Bottle, the Binny's Podcast. If you really enjoyed our interview with Ivo here, which I think was pretty amazing, please like and subscribe to our podcast on any of the podcast platforms that you may be using, particularly iTunes. We'll be back next week with something completely different, I'm sure. Maybe beer, maybe booze. Who knows? Until then, I'm Chris. I'm Ray. I'm Ivo Jeramaz, Vimeca at Grgich Hills. Please keep drinking responsibly, and be merry.