Hey, welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Pat Brophy from the Specialty Spirits Department. We got a couple of people in the room with me today. Who else is here? I'm Jenna. I do communications. Roger, I work in beer. Jim, also communications. Producer Jim on the mic. Look at that. All right. We got a very special guest today. Arguably from the most sought after and arguably tastiest bourbon brand around, we have master distiller Brent Elliott from Four Roses. Brent, welcome. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Appreciate you taking the time. We recently had a big splash here with the Four Roses Taste of 10 Recipes pack, and I do want to get to that and all the whiskeys and stuff. But first, we should probably ask you a couple of things about yourself. You've been the master distiller at Four Roses since 2015 or 2016 now? 2015. 2015. Okay. Took over from a legend in the industry and a legend of a curmudgeon, Mr. Jim Rutledge. Come on, he's not going to listen to a podcast. So, you want to give us an overview of your journey from being a chemist into a master distiller here? Did I get that right? That's exactly right. Yeah, I had no idea. I was a chemist and I chose chemistry because I thought I'd be in the lab, not talking to people, doing my science, doing my chemistry. Now you're stuck doing liquor store podcasts. Eighteen years later, yeah, here I am. So yeah, I had no idea I'd end up doing this, but I love it. It came naturally because I got into Bourbon because I loved it and because I loved understanding how things work. So the two, just it was a perfect marriage there. It was an opportunity to do something truly Kentucky. I'm a Kentucky and I grew up in Kentucky, went to school at UK. Always been fascinated by Bourbon and proud of it. So when the opportunity arose, I kind of found it, sort of sought it out after taking a tour of the competitor. I was at Woodford Reserve and I thought they've got to need chemists in this industry. So before I knew it, I was moving back to Kentucky, taking a role in the laboratory. So I was really just hired and initially I just worked basically on a GC mass spec. I had a lot of experience with that. But you probably know the story. We had just recently come back to the US because we were a pretty skeleton crew over there. There were two of us essentially in the quality department, and there was a lot of need across the board. Can you put in perspective how big of a brand this was at the time? Because now it's ubiquitous. We always have all these Four Roses things on ourselves. We've done hand pics for years. But you mentioned, it just came back, and for listeners who might not know, Four Roses wasn't sold in America for several decades, right? I mean, it was pretty much just Japan and a few other international markets. How many, volume-wise, how much smaller was the brand then, that they could run on a crew like that versus now? Much smaller. We were still selling quite a bit internationally when I started. But in the US, we were only in the state of Kentucky, and we were just doing a few thousand cases. Wow. So, there's a lot of opportunity for us, the brand, and me personally. And that worked to my advantage because they needed help everywhere. So, anywhere I was willing to pitch in or learn, my help was welcome. So, it was a great learning experience. At the time, of course, I'm learning from Jim, Al, Jota Tanaka, a name you may know. So, a lot of these guys in the industry that had been there for decades, I was fortunate enough to get to work with them and learn from them and help out, as the brand grew out of this infancy. And this was your first gig at a distillery? Yes. Okay. Wow. Just right into the fire, just doing anything they asked? Pretty much. Yeah. So, running the GCMS machine, that's interesting. I mean, I imagine that's kind of a more important piece at Four Roses versus a couple other distillers, arguably just based on the different number of recipes, right? And trying to keep those in line? Or is it just like, well, throw them in a barrel and we'll see how it goes at the backend? Well, you would think so. It's interesting because that's my background and I really put a lot of faith in the ability of a GCMS spec to analyze and break down anything volatile that you're looking at. But we don't use it for quality whatsoever. Really? Yeah, or very little research. I think we'll start doing some more of that now that we're kind of, I'd like to say, catching up to the demand. Since I've started, we've just been trying to maintain, keep our heads above water, maintain the quality and the product for the consumers. When it comes to the quality of any given batch, whether it's blending or barrel selections, that's still just 100% smell and taste. Where we do use the GC mass spec, and this is kind of when I got hired, this is what I was doing, there are certain analysis we have to do for like export certificates. We do analysis for discus on a certain compound, ethyl carbamate, every quarter and submit that, and it had just gotten too expensive to farm that out, so we'd purchased this GC mass spec, didn't have anyone to run it. Raj, you've probably seen this, it's the opposite purpose that we see at any brewery that happens to have a GCMS then, because forever, I bought beer for us for a long time, and only a couple breweries that I ever go to, they had a GCMS like Sierra Yeah, it's a very strong tool, and it can be used again for QAQC to make sure that what, hopefully your nose and palate can detect whatever's come off, but if it's below the threshold and still an important compound, you want to relate that to something that might be happening in fermentation or distillation. It's important to have that extra level of sensitivity. The good thing about it is it can't tell you if it tastes good. So, you're big brain in a lab, running a GCMS machine, and then how did that turn into, well, I'm kind of in charge of everything now. Well, I think the next step was, I started actually working with the actual liquid, smelling, tasting, learning the sensory side of things, and also quality control. That went from the quality of the grains coming in to the adhesive on the labels. So, from across the board, basically there were two of us, and for a while, I was the department. After Joe Dutanaka went back to Kieran, I was the quality department for several years. So, now it's grown into a legitimate department. And we have people specializing in each area of production. But for a while, we were growing so fast, we really didn't get ahead of that. It was just trying to chase fires and put them out, and we weren't able to be as proactive, and there weren't any big issues. But we're just growing so fast that it was an interesting time. It still is. The growth is still just phenomenal. So are you in charge of the yeast management then, too? That's definitely one of the most unique things about Four Roses. We should definitely, for listeners that aren't aware, talk about. Well, fortunately, no. There's someone that has relatively new hire that has a microbiology degree. He's great with yeast, and he's bringing a lot of good ideas to the table as far as maintaining the health, you know, better propagation. So we're looking at basically just maintaining what we're doing and making sure that what we do right, we continue to do right. And, you know, it's interesting you say that because we have the five yeast strains. We talk about that all the time because that's our uniqueness. You know, we get the variety of flavors in our products to the yeast. But that's the process that when you come and you go on tour, you're not going to see the yeast lab or the yeast room and all that goes into that. That's arguably the most in-depth and complex part of the whole process. And, of course, there's a lot more room for error on that side. You have to be much more sanitary. You have to really watch, you know, cell counts, temperatures, you know, monitor the fermentation because it's kind of a parallel process to the main distillery process that you do see when you just walk into the distillery. But it's not really talked about. When it's too complicated, you know, someone that just walks in off the street and wants to just see how bourbon is made, you know, they don't want the three-hour in-depth tour. You know, some people do, but for the most part, you know, that's a lot to digest at once. So you see the big fermentation, the distillation, you know, the aging, those sorts of things, you know, the yeast propagation, the maintenance of the yeast health, you know, that's so important to every distillery. And certain, certainly for us, because we're trying to maintain five different strains that we propagate in house from the laboratory to the distillery. Yeah, that's a lot. You definitely got a bunch of the old beer nerds that I think were attracted to bourbon in a lot of ways through barrel-aged beer. They're used to, in the beer world, always having new releases and some kind of variant that they can try. So I think it really appeals to them, the different, 10 different combinations between your mashbills and your yeast. It's a way for them in a bourbon industry that doesn't always have as many choices as they want. It's something that they can geek out on and try the different. You're absolutely right. Maybe 15 years ago, if I were just explaining the process to someone that was just a little bit interested in bourbon. Some people cared about the yeast strain, some people didn't, but brewers always did. Anyone that came from that background was fascinated by it. Now it seems like everyone's pretty fascinated because the consumer is a lot more savvy, a lot more educated, a lot more curious now than they were then. But the beer guys, early on, their eyes would light up and they had tons of questions. They really got it. They understood the importance of different yeast strains, different flavors, and how important the fermentation side of making bourbon is. There's something else that we do that's interesting that, again, I haven't even gotten into this. I feel like I've already dug in a little bit deeply, but we sour our yeast tubs, our yeast mash. So we have in-house, we have lactobacillus that we actually intentionally inoculate to sour it. Because when we backset from a yeast tub to a yeast tub, it's a small amount and it's really just to introduce the yeast. It's not enough of a volume and what we're backsetting isn't sour enough to successfully sour. So are you adding lactobacillus just to then further lower the pH? And just to give it a little healthier boost? Exactly. Yeah, we're protecting it from any bacteria. Is that a common practice? Do you know other distillers doing that? I'm not sure, honestly. Weird. Yeah. But that's part of the quality control minutia you have to go through, especially when you're working with so many different yeasts, I assume. Because do they each have their own prop system? Do you ever, does a V yeast use the same tank as an F yeast in that prop system? I mean, if you clean it enough, you'd think you'd be able to. Yeah. It's all the same. Yeah. We treat everyone the same. Because there is so much cleaning between any batch or whenever we move liquid, that it's not an issue. They all behave the same. They're all similar in many ways. The differences are pretty small. It's just in the different by-products of the metabolism. We're looking at different fingerprints of esters, and fusel oils, and those things. They all ferment at a relatively similar rate. The yield is really indistinguishable across the board. There are many more similarities than there are differences. Okay. That was a couple of parts of the weeds I wanted to get into here. Listeners, if you're not familiar, Roger mentioned it before. Four Roses has these 10 different recipes. We've all seen it now. There are two different mash bills, difference between 20% and 35%, right? Both with just 5% barley. So you're adding exogenous enzyme to aid that fermentation than with only 5% barley, right? Yes. Then there's five different yeasts, so 10 different recipes total. I had heard at one point, and I think I brought it up to our marketing suit in the corner here once. I think I'd heard it from Rutledge that the F yeast originated, for example, just as a point of differentiation, that at some time I had heard, it was either from Rutledge or from Al or something, that the F yeast kind of came about because it was the big driver in winter, and it, for some reason, fermented in a more healthy rate in colder months or something. So you'd see more F usage in the winter versus the summer. I always assumed, well, it's got to be all standardized at this point. It is. That's some of the tribal knowledge that's been passed down. And so I still typically put the Fs in the colder months. Nice. But we have- Glad I got that right. Whether there's, I don't know if it would make much of a difference. There are some temperature variations in the distillery. Not huge from summer to winter. It's not like it's air conditioned or heated. So there could have an effect on it. But we've fermented F in the warmer months and it's done just fine. So, but no harm done if, you know, the schedule doesn't matter where we put it. That's the yeast in your donut tank at that point. Core Four Roses bourbon, we used to call it yellow label, now we're just calling it Four Roses bourbon, is all 10 recipes, yeah? And then Small Batch is four of them? Correct. Okay. And Single Barrel is always what? The 100-proof Single Barrel is always the OBSV. OBSV. Okay. So that's our core three products originally, and then good time to taste one. Kind of one of your first kind of full-time creation was the Small Batch Select, right? Yes. Okay. Jenna, you want to pour that? Have you ever had this one, Jenna? I have not. You were in for a treat. I'm excited. And so this, we released this in 2019, and prior to that, the last addition to our permanent lineup had been Small Batch in 2006. So that's a good gap of time there. So we really waited, we wanted to do it right, and when we released this, we looked at the modern consumer, we looked at what we had on the shelf, and we tried to fill in any gaps. So what we decided is, consumers now are looking for non-chill filtered, higher proof bourbons, and of course you can get those with our limited editions, you can get those with our private selections, but you can't get those just anywhere. Get those in air quotes, because both of those things are very hard to come by. So that's what we did with this, and of course we wanted to use the Small Batch platform, which is kind of how we demonstrate our versatility with the different recipes. So that's the whole idea behind Small Batches. With 10 recipes, we have an infinite number of combinations, different flavors we can create. This one is six of the different recipes. It's both mash bills. It uses the V yeast, which is the delicate fruity yeast, the K, which is spicy, and then to be the one that really helps drive the overall flavor of this is the F we were just talking about. I love F. A little bit of F goes a long way. It has that herbal, clove-like, minty flavor, and it really, it creates a lot of mouthfeel, viscosity, adds to the finish. That's dangerous. Yeah. That drinks. This is what, 104 proof, non-chill filtered. I think the non-chill filtration goes a long way here. It's got that notable chewier texture to it. Not that the regular stuff is thin or anything, but this one, it really stands out. I was really excited to see this because I've always loved Small Batch, but I like drinking bourbon with a little ice, so it's just 90 can get a little washed out if you put some ice in it, but at 104, I think this can hold up to some ice and still super rich. You're right. Very rich bourbon. This is delicious. Yeah. I'm glad you like it. Yeah. You can drink it neat. It's not hot. It's smooth mellow, but you're right. If you add a little ice to it, it's not going to be so diluted that it's not worth drinking. You can still handle some dilution and still have some good bodies. I think it really shows off the breadth of flavor that Four Roses offers too, because you ask a room of 10 bourbon lovers what they would consider the Four Roses profile. I feel like half of them would say fruity and half of them would say spicy. It really depends on what single barrel recipes they tend to lean toward or just what their personal palate is picking up most. This just shows that whole thing, that the richer, darker fruits, these ripe bramble berries, all that baking spice. It's really well-rounded bourbon. I think one of the most pervasive myths still with whiskey is just people being a little too preoccupied with age. I like that you guys are very transparent here about, this is like the normal small batch, age between six to seven years. How did you land on that? I mean, it definitely shows some character, but it's by no means dry. Do you think like six to seven is a nice sweet spot? Kind of seems like a lot of people in the industry. That seems to be an age that a lot of people gravitate towards. Yeah, I really think it is. I was telling someone just yesterday, we were having a discussion about it. I said, if you just randomly said for the rest of your life, we're going to pick a random barrel out of this warehouse, do you want to randomly pick a 15 year old or a seven year old? Let's say a seven year old all day. Every time. Every time. When you're dealing with a product like this, that isn't a hand selected single barrel, it's a decent size volume. It's much safer to bank on those six and seven year old barrels, which are always, they're old enough, they're solid, they're vibrant, they've got that, for lack of a better term, that Four Roses character that we get from those yeast strains. Our older barrels can be fantastic and you see those in those hand selected batches that we let age longer, but to really maintain and capture those different characteristics of the yeast strains, you're going to see those come through a lot more in You ask people who work in the industry, like, oh yeah, six or seven. You ask people that chase a lot of bourbon, they're like, well, it's 12, 10, 12. And it's good luck finding the right amount of barrels you need for a national brand out of 10, 12 year old barrels. You can have so many that are dried out and gross. Well put. That's what I think's funny too, is if you ask people what they like about bourbon and said, describe some of the flavors you want in your bourbon, it's usually younger flavors than older ones. They wouldn't necessarily start describing what you get out of a spicier, dried out. I'm looking for like dry clove and anise and it's like, nobody says that. They want vanilla and fruits and caramel and so. Jim, have you ever had this one before? I have not had this one. Yeah, it's excellent. Yeah, this is on the shelf under 60 bucks at Binny's near you, pretty screaming deal. Seriously? Yeah. Damn. Good value in Four Roses always. Yeah, absolutely. I was not expecting that. Even though previously eluded marketing suits recently raised our prices. Brent, do you have a favorite recipe? We always got to ask this. I really don't. That's bullsh**. It's not. Well, I could answer that, but it wouldn't be satisfying. It would take me like 15 minutes. I would just go in circles because different recipes at different ages. Yeah, that's fair. And I guess the best way to gauge it is I do barrel selections maybe once every six weeks or something. And I love doing them. I actually get to go to the warehouses and sit in. And I do them blind like everybody else. So that's kind of the gauge that I use. And at one point or another, I've chosen all 10 recipes. But we're talking 8 to 12 year old barrels here. So at that age, a lot of time, it's more about the barrel itself than the original recipe. But I pick all 10 at different times. I would say if I tallied it up, more often, or the ones I choose most often would probably be like an OESV or an OESK. Interesting. But I'm reluctant to say they're my favorites because probably there have been times where an OESF or OBSF just blew the K out of the water in my mind. So I think it's what keeps it interesting. You see so many and you've been there for a long enough time now. I understand that it's hard to choose. Fifteen years ago, I would have said OBSK, because I was really hard on OBSK at the time, and now I tend to lean more toward weird OFs, a real minty weird F or an occasional O. I like the O's a lot now. I don't know. Well, I have to say, when you were talking about how quickly things have changed over the years, I mean, I probably sold more single barrel selections that the Whiskey Hotline made of Four Roses than any other whiskey brand, and it was an embarrassment of riches in the past. We would get a drop and there'd be several different ones to choose from. I'd usually be trying to convince someone, look, these are so good, you should buy two of them. Yeah. Comparatively. It's just so funny the way demand is just shot through the roof to the point of it's scaled back now. Yeah. We can offer, but I guess from a production standpoint, that's a good thing in a way, obviously. It's a great problem to have. More aware of you and the excellent bourbon you're making. But as far as production goes, have you guys, are you still, I've always wondered what it's like to try to ramp up, obviously, demand continues to grow. But is there a point where you're like, okay, well, there's only so much more we can make? Or what's that process like? Yeah. We always struggle with that. We've actually increased in the last couple of years, the number of private barrels. But it doesn't look that way because the demand has grown faster than the amount that we've increased the volume by. So it's still harder to get than it was five years ago, but we're actually producing more and bottling more of the barrels. Yeah, we're always looking at that. And part of the problem with private barrels is the age across the board for anyone. You know, if you're looking at 8 to 12 year old products or barrels that are handpicked because they're exceptional, the problem is they have to survive their five year old year, their six, seven year period of time when there's a lot of demand for those in products like small batch, small batch like Four Roses, Bourbon, standard single barrel. So we have to really consciously set those aside and not touch them. And when demand grows a lot faster than what we'd anticipated, that's where we run into issues there. So a few years back, you might recall like OESOs were scarce. Yep. OBSKs were scarce. And it was because of that exactly small batch demand spiked and we needed those recipes. And so we kind of borrowed from or used those batches before they became old enough to be. I mean, what's more important? You know, a one-off store pick barrel or, you know, the core product. It's, of course, it's got to go to the core product. And we've seen that too. I mean, small batches are number one by a pretty good clip at this point. So it is what it is. Yeah. It's a balancing act. Yeah. We are back this year though, listeners, you know, talk to the staff at your local Binny's. We are as of this year, maybe last year too, we finally got back to access to all 10 recipes in the single barrel picks throughout the year, not all at once. You know, like there was like a two year span in like 08 and 09 where we had all 10 recipes on the shelf at one time, which was awesome. But that's when we were having to like work to sell them too. And it's like, really, you should spend $55 on this. And now that they're like $100, you know, we can't even like put them on the shelf. It's crazy. You guys probably hear the same thing. You still get barrels on the shelf, but I'm sure consumers are like, why don't you get these anymore? It's like, well, you do, but they're gone. They sell out and they're gone. If all the lettering is making your head spin, we should mention that there's the 10-pack right now is an awesome opportunity. Yeah, it's the only opportunity you're gonna have these days to taste all 10 recipes side by side. It's on the shelf for 130 bucks. It is all older stuff, too. It's all eight-plus-year-old liquid, and it's all 107 proof, 104 proof? 104. 104, okay. Just like Small Bag Select. So pretty cool. Pretty cool opportunity to do that. And it's available at, I think, every Binny's still has some, even by the time that this podcast gets released. Yep, yeah, it'll be out there. I mean, if you know someone that loves bourbon, this is one of the most no-brainer gift options ever. Yeah, definitely. My favorite foolproof, go get one of these. Yeah, and those are actually batches, or liquid from batches from the Private Barrel program. Nice. I can't tell you what they are. I could tell you if I could remember. But they are actual, they're pulled from live barrels, or batches of barrels that are in the program. So, you have probably opened Pandora's Box, though, giving everyone access to these. You think that this might generate a favorite amongst consumers. Was that almost intentional? You think you're going to engage people on social media at all to ask them which one they prefer? We haven't thought of that yet, but inevitably, things kind of unfold naturally. Yeah, and that makes sense that that will happen. I was just telling Pat, I was trying to think back when I was selling spirits at the Willowbrook store, there definitely did seem to be a couple that people would ask more about. I don't know if it was just like a scarcity thing, but they all sound so similar that now I'm struggling to remember. I think it was OBSK maybe. Back in the day, the nerds looked for K and F just because there wasn't a lot of F. I feel like last couple of years, it's been O, and I think a big part of that though is because nobody was really getting O's. We didn't get any O's one year, and the next year we got like one barrel through the whole year or something. So it was kind of a big deal when an O got released because there was a year where I think they only went to charity barrels or something too. So they do a good job managing that program, and I really like their barrel pick program. So we go down there twice a year and pick six months of barrels at a time. The woman who runs the barrel program and has for years, is this woman Mandy, is totally brilliant and awesome and easy to work with. But she's a big fan of tasting blind like us. So it's one of those things where we always taste blind, we don't want to know anything. And it didn't used to be that way with her, but then now she makes everyone taste blind because too many accounts are coming in to be like, well, we'll just take whatever the highest proof is. Or we'll just take whatever the oldest thing is. And it's like, that's not why you're here. Yeah, why come in? Yeah, why even bother? Just have Brent pick a good barrel for you then. He's going to pick an awesome barrel. Like, why bother wasting her time with an appointment and literally physically rolling out these barrels and thieving out of them and stuff? And if you're in there in the winter, it's freezing cold. Like, it's just a big waste of everybody's time. Kind of funny. What kind of variance do you usually get as far as proof on the single barrels? It really depends on the tier. OK. And, you know, we talk a lot about our single store warehouses. And I was going to mention, we mentioned warehouse earlier. We should go on to how different your warehouses are. Yeah. This was, you know, Seagram's built these back in the late 50s, early 60s. I assume because they were tired of rotating. That was the common practice then. Really? Other people were rotating then? I, you know, you hear about makers rotating, but it's always like they're the only ones to do it. Everybody did it back then, huh? As far as I know. Really? From what I understand, that was the common practice. Yeah. And that's what Seagram said. And so they came up with this idea that it's a brilliant idea, really, just build the warehouses longer and wider and shorter. So the temperature variation isn't nearly as much when you're just stacked six barrels high. And you still see that today. I mean, once you start getting eight, nine, ten years, even in our warehouses, which are really consistent, you start seeing a difference in proof, color, characteristics from first tier to sixth tier. But for most of our products that are five to seven, eight years, it's not significant enough that I have to worry about it when I'm selecting batches for blending. It all kind of works out. But start looking at ten-year-old private selection, a first-tier barrel could be 110 proof, and they all go in at 120 across the board, every one of our barrels. So 105, 110 from the lower tiers could be 130-ish on the top tiers. It's not just a higher proof, but how intro proof drives flavors in the first place. Every distiller selects an intro proof based on what kind of flavor profile they're trying to reach. So it's almost like it's a self-feeding mechanism where if it's a higher tier, not only is it going to be higher in alcohol, but because it's higher in alcohol, it's going to start aging differently. So when you start getting out into those older barrels, a first-tier and a sixth-tier, the proof's different and the flavor just continues to get even more and more different. Yeah. The higher alcohol is pulling different compounds out of the wood, it's interacting with oxygen in different ways. It's not just a matter of it's going to taste a little bit spicier. Exactly. It's legitimately wildly different. That's cool. To put in perspective, how much these guys have grown and are increasing capacity. I've been at the Cox Creek Warehouse Facility twice a year now for, I don't know, 12 years or something. We've been going down there and doing it just because it was easier, and every single time we're there, they're building a new warehouse. Every single time there's a new warehouse going up. It's crazy. And you were probably there, I think we may have done a selection like 2010 or something prior. It was before we even had a barrel selection room. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. We had just, we'd put a card table up, you know, wherever the barrels weren't rolling and, you know, we'd do an impromptu, it felt impromptu. But, and it's, yeah, every time you come down, we're going to be doing something. It's all about maintaining or just keeping up. Yeah. And you guys have since purchased more land too, right? Right next to the distillery we have. Okay. Yeah. No plans for that yet, but we figured, you know, it's right there. You're going to run out of space at some point. Yeah. You can only put- We're very optimistic, so. Yeah. Have you experienced any kind of challenges because of this just insane popularity besides people complaining that they want whiskey, but from like a production, is barrel supply still good? Is that ever a challenge? Any issues with grain? For us, no. We're very fortunate. We've had even through COVID with supply chain issues. We were very fortunate. No glass issues, no grain issues, no barrel issues. I can't speak for the whole industry, but it's been a challenging time, I know for some, for supply chain, in particular glass. That was, I don't know if that's been ironed out, but I know a lot of people had issues with that in the last couple of years. A lot of people had glass issues, yeah. But we've been fortunate. You talk to any small distillery, nowadays they're complaining that they can't get barrels because big guys, all the ISC contracts are prioritized to big producers, things like that. What's your take on America's obsession with weeded bourbon? I personally like weeded bourbon. Yeah. You think you'd ever make one? I'm not sure. I get asked all the time about a rye bourbon or a rye whiskey. I get asked that a lot, I think it makes sense because rye is really a cornerstone of our flavor profile. Yeah. We use so much of it. I think if we do something, that would probably be the first new product we'd lay down. But I'd be interested in the weeded bourbon. Absolutely. It seems to go so hand in hand with people's obsession with older bourbons. Do you think that there's a component to that, that a weeded bourbon has more aging potential, that you can drink an older weeded versus if you had a high rye for example, a 12-year-old high rye is going to be a pretty aggressive bourbon, right? If I answer that, I would be just repeating what I've heard. Because I don't have any first-hand experience with tasting weeded bourbons from age 4 to 20 and comparing them in a controlled environment. But I've always heard that and I can kind of see it makes sense, but I can't really. I don't have an insider's scoop on that. On that note, Roger, as far as older, higher Rye Bourbon, it's probably talk about what was kind of your second, or I suppose this was your first big creation, right? Because Small Batch Select is, we've had around for what, five years now or something. But when you were first named Master Distiller, the next limited edition single barrel that came out was, what did we call it? Elliott Select, was it? Elliott Select, yes. How does it feel having your face etched on the side of a bottle like that? You know, it took me a while to warm up to that. They presented that to me and I said. I think they captured you pretty well. You're very young looking here. Not that you're old looking now. It was eight years ago. Yeah, when they first presented that, it was more like a photograph. What better way to introduce Brent as Four Roses new Master Distiller than with this elegant, balanced and perfectly aged limited edition single barrel? Poetry. Yeah, I agree to that. I was thinking about my kids. It would be cool for them because they were really young at the time. They didn't really, dad has a new job at work, whatever. I was like, I'm going to bring him a bottle with my face on it. Now, listen, we're drinking some unobtainium here, but Brent's in the room, so we got to talk about it. So this was 2016. This one came out, I think. Yeah, I think it was June of 16. Okay. That was around the first time I met you. You had come up to the store and we were, I don't know, we were talking about this. We got a sample bottle of this. It was delicious. I haven't had it in quite a few years. So which recipe was this that you choose as your first Brent's on the scene single barrel? OESK. Lower rye, 20 percent rye, spicy yeast. Exactly. At 14 years old, and we bottled, I believe, first, second, third, and fourth tier barrels of this. Okay. So we had, there was a big swing in proofs and a lot of variation between the barrels. Went from like just above 100 proof to just under 120. Wow. This is a good one. This is a pretty unbelievable. This is one of the high proof ones. This one's 59.4. That's pretty high. So he mentioned earlier the 120 barrel entry proof. Worth noting that that is not as high as it could be. You know, we've seen other distillers of comparable size have long since moved to 125 entry proof, just because at some point, the cynical side of me thinks some accountant made them. And it was just, you're going to go in at this proof because we're going to sell, we're going to make more money off of every barrel you fill seven years from now, because we're going to we're going to have more product for more bottles. You're one of the few that's still below that 125. Is this something? Have you ever played around with maybe a small, limited experimental run at a lower proof? Have you tried tracking that at all yet? Or has it just been too busy trying to play catch up to even f**k around with experiments like that? Pretty much too busy. We did do an experiment like right about the time I started, where we put some barrels in, I think, from 105 up to 125. And we did some on each tier. And then we did like a panel evaluation. And I don't remember the results exactly, but it basically, I remember they weren't really linear, like it didn't make sense. Like I think everyone enjoyed or appreciated the richness and the depth. And we looked at different characteristics. But overall, if I recall correctly, it was like the 110, 115, and 120 all scored about the same. The 125 kind of dropped off, and the 105 kind of dropped off. Interesting. Because the people that are advocates of low entry proof really won't shut up about it. And I like a lot of low entry proof ribbons I've had. I like, especially when you're talking about a core shelf product that gets cut down to maybe 90 or 94 proof. Yes, you're going to be putting less water in. I think that does kind of make a difference. But I've also heard the argument from, from a couple really sharp guys at Big Distillery saying, no, we found we prefer the 125 because at that alcohol level, we're actually pulling more compound out of the wood that we want. And that 105 doesn't have the chutzpah, so to speak, to really pull out these wood compounds that 125 does. So one of those things. But I suppose without doing experiments and having a taste panel and doing GCMS work on it, I don't see how you could even ever find a difference in it. Yeah, I think there are definitely differences. And again, I can't speak. I haven't done that experiment myself and actually analyze the compounds of different proofs. I could just from that experiment, I do recall there was a difference. There's no doubt about it. So it really comes down to preference. Just cut the Dakota's allocation one year and just dedicate that amount of production to this experiment then. Like they'll get over it. But like what's one year sales in North and South Dakota, honestly? Have you ever thought about releasing a bonded or 100 proof version of your standard Four Roses? It's been thrown around because the reality is our single barrel meets all those requirements. You could call it bonded. We don't. No plans to, but I'm not going to say that we won't. It might come up in conversation again. Yeah, the core single barrel is 100 proof. You could just throw bonded on there. Yeah, the single barrel, so it's all from the same season. It's all from the same distiller. That's an excuse for the marketing suits to charge an extra 10 bucks for it, though, I think, at this point. I don't know. I was thinking of it from the perspective of not so much just, oh, you need a bonded, but for a lower tier mixer for cocktails, you know, like the 80 can get kind of lost. I'd love to see the core. Well, the core is at 80. I was thinking it was at 90. I would love to see the core product get bonded as like a one-off anniversary release or something. So you go ahead and use that. I'll take five cents every bottle sold and everyone wins here. I hate to tell you that's such a good idea that I have heard that before. Sorry. Damn it. And I love it, but I do love it. I think it'd be a great one-off because, you know, a lot of people now, it's all about the proof. Kind of like you said, people, you know, in a barrel selection, if it's not a certain recipe, you're not a sixth tier. And so I think a lot of people sort of neglect to even give something that's below 100 proof a chance. Yeah. And that 80 proof, but the people that do, they're like, man, that's great. But what if? It's like shockingly full-bodied and rich for an 80 proof bourbon. Like it is, it holds its own with 90 proof bourbons that are around it on the shelf. Like no question. I would love to see it at 100. That'd be cool. I'll tell you though, it gets washed out in a julep. If you're making a drink with a lot of ice, you need something that's better proof. You get for drinking juleps. I stand by the julep. You make your own mint syrup, that's a damn good drink. Yeah, I like the julep too. Roger likes to celebrate the holidays. Nothing like taking an extra hour with one ingredient to make one cocktail. Man, Elliott Select is pretty damn good. That's what it was officially called, right? Elliott Select? Yeah. So after this though, I don't think we've really seen the, they're used to always, the whole thing with the limited releases is in the, it used to be, I believe the cadence was spring, there was a limited edition barrel strength, single barrel, and the fall was a limited edition barrel strength small batch. After this limited single barrel, we didn't really see limited single barrel again, right? No, we actually, we discontinued the single barrel in 2015. Okay. And then we turned around. They brought it back just so they could put your mug on the side of the bottle. Yeah. They actually came, they basically said, we've lost Jim, he's an icon, everybody knows who he is. And they were nice about it. They were like, nobody knows you, man. We need to do something. You know, sure, by the way, we're still around as a brand and we're confident in your face, which we're going to put on the side of the bottle. Let me see the side. How'd they do catching the beard on the bottle? Not bad, not bad. Yeah, yeah, you can tell it's there. Not bad. So, but they said, what do you want to do? And it was funny because Jim kind of surprised us. He retired at 49 years and we were about to do a 50th anniversary for him just like we did for Al the following year. So, I'd already pulled all the barrels together and was about to start working with Jim on blending and trying to figure out what he wants. And he was not really interested, like he just kept putting it off and he wouldn't give any good feedback about what kind of package he wanted, what kind of flavor direction he wanted to go, anything. And looking back, it was because he knew he was leaving, he just hadn't announced it yet, so he didn't want to waste everyone's time. So, I had all the samples, I had already started evaluating them when they came to me with this. And I was like, well, there are two batches that are fantastic, that I think would stand up great as single barrels. I know we just told everybody that we weren't going to do that anymore, explained in depth why we weren't going to. But I think this is a good idea. These batches are so good. So, then I spent about three months going back and forth between those two batches, soul searching, trying to decide, not only was it the first one with my name on it, but literally had my name on it and my face. So, I finally landed on this OESK and couldn't be happier. At the end of the day, what I ended up doing was like, I'm just going to pick the one that I like best. Because the other one I was thinking, I think I was trying to guess what the consumers would like. I was like, well, I'm going to be dealing with this a lot, so I need to figure out how I'm going to approach this. I was like, I'm just going to select what I personally like and hope that everyone else's palette aligns to mine. It's kind of how, with the small batch select, kind of the same philosophy I went into with that. So that was kind of how it all came about. But yeah, 2015, we explained to everyone we weren't ever going to do a single barrel again. So this is sort of a one-off. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned that, the Al Young bottling. I don't like to talk in absolutes, and people always ask me, what's the best fill in the blank? But I do have to say, that was one of the best bottles of bourbon I've ever drank. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, it was pretty good. It didn't suck. It was unbelievable. Could you talk just a little bit about what it was like to put that together? Let me say it. Can you do it again, too, please? Unfortunately, no. It was lightning in a bottle. Can't recreate that. To say you don't speak in absolutes, you said it best, like it's impossible. But with that one, I'd say the same thing. But there's a caveat to it. It's my favorite release we've ever done for several reasons. One, the liquid's fantastic and the flavor profile on that is just remarkable. The packaging is super cool. The throwback, a nod to 1967 when Al started, and the fact that it's just worked with Al on that. Just Al being Al. Just the whole experience, the package, the liquid, everything to me, that's by far my favorite thing we've ever put out. When we started that, I went to Al. He'd been distillery manager for years. He'd been on the tasting panel. There was some overlap there. So I started in 05 and I think he became brand ambassador in 08. So he was on the sensory panel and I was in the lab with him tasting a lot until he started doing the brand ambassador thing. Then I wasn't tasting with him, but he was still tasting a lot because he was doing barrel selections. He was traveling. He maintained his palate. He had a great palate. And so when we first started this, I went to him and he knew we were going to do a release. We're going to commemorate his 50th anniversary. And I was like, Al, tell me what direction you want to go with this. Let's, we've got a lot of older batches here. We can kind of, this guy's the limit. What do you want to do? And he said, I want something. I want a batch that's really old and I want it to be totally different than anything we've done before. So immediately I kind of had a good idea. That tater just going for old juice. You earned it when you worked for Fit. That's the only person that can say they want really old bourbon. They worked there for 50 years. He also said, I want liquid that was from when I was working the distillery. And we're thinking, well, all this is when you were a distillery manager. Because we're not, this was, because everything in there was going to be 10 years or older. And I guess there might have been some stuff that was distilled and like, that might have been just shy of that. So every bit of it satisfied that. It was all distilled when Al was a distillery manager. Except maybe the oldest one, ironically. And I'd have to, I can't remember the date that he actually started as a distillery manager. But it was a 23 year old, I can't remember the ages of the other three batches, but then an F. So that was, when he said something different, let's think, an F, when he said older, there was this really good 23 year old batch, I think OBSV, pulled that out, started working on test blends. And he was happy from the beginning. Like when I explained what we were going to be working with, and then each step of the way, he'd sign off on it and get in the lab and be tasting. It was just exciting. It was awesome to get to work with him. He was excited, we were excited, because you've met Al. Oh yeah. Full of energy, and everyone was excited to do something great for him, just to try to give back. He got everybody else so excited about bourbon, and especially about the brand too. Like you don't, I meet a lot of assholes from a lot of brands, and nobody gave, genuinely gave as much of a shit about the brand they were for as Al Young, like nobody. It was just like, he was so personally invested in it. It was something else, really was. So Raj, that was one of your favorites, and that was a truly stunning bourbon. One I would say I think I hold right up there with it, and was my favorite thing I tasted in that given year was this recent Small Batch Select, or Small Batch Limited release there. What did I say that was? 2022 was my favorite. When I tried it that year, it was easily the best thing I had tasted all year. It was absolutely my favorite thing I tasted that year. Can't really talk about it because it was like a pretty limited release. Every year at the end of the year on this podcast, we do our picks of the year, and we bring in all the different buyers from every different apartment. They get their picks, we get our own picks with it. I want to give a genuine report of what my favorite thing was of the year, but I generally want it to also be something people can actually find. But you brought this, so we're going to taste it today because I'm not going to pass up, I'm not going to taste it again. And so, listeners, if I will say, I don't advocate this often, but if you see this available on one of the whiskey auction sites, and you can legally obtain this, even at a small premium, to what the original retail was, I would suggest you go out and try this bottle. So this is the 2022 Limited Edition Barrel Strength Small Batch. They name these things so many times. Brent, do you recall the breakdown on recipes on this one? I have a text from our marketing guy that I can pull up if I need it. I'll do my best. This won't be too far off, might not be exact. But it's so chocolatey. There's a 20-year-old in there, and it's a good portion. It's like 20 percent of a 20-year-old OBSV, and then there are two 14-year-old batches and a 15-year-old batch. It's a 14-year-old OESF, 14-year-old OESV, and 15-year-old OESK. K and F, back to my favorites. Now, I'm being the tater here with the big chunk of old stuff, but I think an argument can be made that you guys can get to that age in a more balanced and graceful way than a lot of other distilleries that have seven and nine floor rick houses ever could, just from the nature of those warehouses. When I talk internally, when I'm training Binny's Spirits people, we talk about a four-rowes warehouse, and it's the closest thing we have in America to like a dunnage-style Scotch warehouse, where there's going to be a dirt or a concrete floor, and these things are barely that high. I mean, Scotch, traditional dunnage, of course, is only going to be like three barrels high, but six barrels is not that much higher. No, and even with our six tiers, most of the batches that age out, that we allow to age this long, are first, second, or third tiers. There's some exceptions. And you can see that that's reflected in the proof of these. They're always like 108 to 112. On the flip side, if these were all fifth and sixth tier barrels, the quality wouldn't be the same, but they would be like 130 proof releases. So, even in our warehouses, once you start going out that long, that old, you're going to find the better or the more mellow aged barrels still closer to the floor. Yeah, one of those classic Four Roses characters being a more mellow bourbon. Man, this is something else. This is amazing. Yeah, the like stone fruit flavors in here are pretty awesome. It's like a peach plum type thing that's... There's a chocolate sauce in there too. There's a milk chocolate. I mean, nothing wrong with chocolatey bourbon, but this just blew me away the first time I tried it. Absolutely blew me away. And it still does to this day. And this bottle's been open for a while, but it's still tasting great. Love the oak in this one too. I mean, it's there. It tastes like old antique barrel oak, but it doesn't bring the baggage that older barrels sometimes. It was there a little bit in the just the barrels themselves, but when it all came together with the other batches, it just... You especially get in the finish. Like, there's like this, there's just an oak structure-ness to it in the finish. I don't know how else to describe it, but it's it. You can tell it's old stuff, but it's never out of balance. Man, it's awesome. This is what 108? Is that kind of smudged a little? I think this one's 109. Okay. That's a nice. Sorry, Rog. I got my sweaty paws all over. Yeah. I think that's a great level. Some of the cast strength stuff is, I really like it when I can dial it in, but if you're just going to enjoy it neat, I think that's like a good under like 110. Yeah. I'm a big fan of always saying, we buy a lot of barrels here, and we try to get almost as many as we can, certainly, bottle the cast strength, and we joke that we want to sell you whiskey and not water, and you can always add it, you can't take it out, but at some point, there becomes proof chasing with it, versus how well it actually drinks. Something to be said when it's, this is cast strength, no water is in this, and it's full enough that it's creating that mouth feel and that structure I still remember going to Whiskey Fest and seeing somebody slug down a George T's stag and just have a coughing fit, like they almost threw up on the floor. It's just like, yeah, I don't think that's really intended to be tossed back at 140 proof. I only drink them neat. Yeah, only neat. Yeah, this is an incredible bourbon. Truly. I'm glad you like it. The cry of the beer community is always what's new, and it seems like that's made its way into whiskey. So, what do you got that's coming new for us? Anything you can tease out? Well, this is our 135th anniversary. So, the brand was established in 1888. So, we did the Taste of Tin. That's big for us this year. That's true, that's new. People have been looking for that, or asking for a long time. We've been wanting to deliver. We're doing a brand refresh, so all of our labels are going to get facelift. They added a circle around the roses. Among other things. It's a golden circle. I'm even wearing the shirts. It's revised. So, we have the brand refresh. And then, as you probably know, for the 125th, the 130th, we do a special limited edition release. So, we're doing the 135th this year. Even more special than the regular special limited edition release? You know, it's hard to be more special. It's the same special, just different. It's gonna have a special logo on it. Different celebrations. Special, yeah. It's gonna have two circles around the roses. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah. But I actually brought some of that if you guys want to try that. Roger's not interested, but Jen and I would love to try it. I'll try some. Yeah, Jim will try some too. I've mentioned this to Pat before in the past, but I started with Binny's in 2016 as a wine consultant and we do cross training. And one of the first bourbons I ever tried, I was not into bourbon at all when I started with Binny's, was Four Roses. And just like just your standard regular one, I thought it was amazing. And that was like where I went when I had when I got trapped by the bourbon bros and had to recommend something that we, you know, we don't have your blends. I'm so sorry. Try this instead. And it's continued to be one of my favorites. And sometimes I wonder if it's just like nostalgic or special in that way. But I mean, this tasting has proved otherwise. Your stuff is amazing regardless of my feelings on it. So hey, hey, stop being on the table. Let's try that hundred thirty fifth. Okay, I'll practice for you. So this has been bottled and it'll be released. It'll probably hit up here October. Howard Distillery visits, are they still on the uptick? It seems like bourbon tourism is as crazy as it's ever been, right? It's back. And it generates so much money for the state and so much tourism now. I mean, Bourbon Trail is crazy now. It's definitely back. Like 2019 was a record year and then, of course, everything slowed down. I can't remember the numbers, but I mean, we broke the record in, I think it was either 20, this is 22, far surpassed the 2019 numbers. And I think those were like 1.4 million visits on the trail. So it's crazy. Yeah, it's not slowing down at all. Have you ever toured their distillery, Roger? I have. Yeah. It's a pretty interesting. The architecture is pretty wild. Yeah, it's got like, I don't know, the Spanish mission style or something. What would you call that? Yeah, Spanish mission. It's totally unique, totally out of place in Kentucky. We love it. So you guys come back in this year for a pick or is it going to be next year before you're back? Yeah, January, January. So we generally, we do January and usually like June, you know, just try to bang out six months worth at a time. This is easier that day. You know, Manny's got a whole bunch of barrels in that little room. And they've got a beautiful new visitor center at the Four Roses Distillery in Lawrenceburg. Huge new visitor center. And the warehousing facility in Cox Creek, which is right outside Bardstown, that's got a little visitor center too, little gift shop. It's awesome. And they have like a, you can walk in and see one of the warehouses, which is worth seeing because again, because it's so different than anything else you're going to see. Yeah, I went there once, Stu and I went there, kind of check things out. Yeah. It was a cool place in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah, it is in the middle of nowhere. Sorry, we killed a good chunk of that little bottle, sample bottle there. I brought it just for you guys. This one is four batches, three different recipes. Got some 12-year-old OESK, 14-year-old OESV, 16-year-old OESV, and just a hint or just a touch of 25-year-old OBSV 25-year-old OBSV? Just about 5%. Yeah, a little bit. Just to add a little extra layer of that. I was about to say, where's all the B? We're using no B in these older ones. Wow, that's very different. Really cool fruit character in this. Lot of fruit. Holy cow. I'm glad we're tasting on the tail of the other one, because with these, kind of like the small batch platform I was talking about, it's always about trying to demonstrate how we can do something so different. The ages are about the same. Actually, the last one, you know, the 25-year-old, the other one had an average higher age. Just to see the difference in flavors that we can create. This one's like so much fruit. But there's cherry and like nectarine. Holy cow. I'm glad you said berries. I get, I was reluctant to say syrup, but it's just so rich, like a rich apricot type fruit, with a top note of just that sweet berry. Yeah, like strawberry, raspberry. Yeah, ripe berry. We still get that oak under tone, a little bit of spice. Brown sugar. Wow, that's something else. What proof is this going to be bottled at, you know? 108. 108, okay. Came at 108 even. Man, this is good. Holy cow. Crazy good. I look around, everyone's just chewing. Yeah. Like we're eating something. Coming soon. I mean, this is one of those bourbons where we get a few bottles of store type of thing. It's, if you're looking for it, ask, but we're going to have a lot more people looking for it than we're going to have bottles. That's the only thing we can guarantee here, but this is incredible stuff. And if you get a chance, this is one of those things where if you see it at a bar, you should pony up and try it. Or if you're like at a World of Whiskeys next year, I assume it might be, ask the Four Roses guy nicely, chances are there might be something under the table at World of Whiskeys type of thing. And you were saying the way that the release is now, it would be good as people are interested in to kind of talk to the people running the spirits department or Binny's and the manager about the hand picks. And they're coming out sporadically, you see like about every three months or so. Yeah, I mean, we get Four Roses hand picks every month. These are barrel proof barrels and they're getting spread around 45 stores. So yields are small to begin with. We've had, you know, some Four Roses barrels in the past that yield less than 20 cases, you know, and not that irregularly even of that. So, you know, stores get access to them every month, but a limited amount. But we do try to spread them around to people. And it's, you know, the same person isn't going to be able to buy a Four Roses hand pick every single month. But ideally, everybody wants one gets some some access to them throughout the year. It's a losing battle with it for now. Brent, man, I really appreciate your time today. It's a rare happening when two bearded ginger titans of the industry get together in one room together for a podcast. So it's really, you know, we're feeling the love today. I really appreciate it. Listeners, hope you enjoyed this today. Four Roses makes some stunning bourbons. You should be drinking Small Batch Select every day, honestly. And hopefully when you get a chance to try these limited releases, they are they are something else. Get out there and get that 10 pack. Yeah, get the 10 pack while it's here. You know, you ask anybody works in the bottling hall, they're just going to complain about having to put together something like that with 10 different miniatures from different batches into some stupid collectible package that looks very nice. And you can, there's a very nicely done tasting video with Brent here that you can access from a QR code on the back of that package. It will take you through all 10 recipes. You should do that, Jenna. You'll enjoy it. OK. Yeah, OK. You can expense it. Yeah, there we go. Then reach out on social media and tell them which one is the best. Yeah, force them into a fold. Yeah. But if you enjoy our podcast as much as we enjoy Four Roses Bourbon, do us a favor, leave us a review on the podcast platform of your choice. We'll see you next week with something probably not as interesting as this. Sorry, next week. Until then, I'm Pat. I'm Jim. I'm Roger. I'm Jenna. And I'm Brent. Keep tasting. Like beer. 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