You're listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. This week, we are going to talk about Darklager, not just any Darklager, and not Czech Darklager. The second in our Darklager series. That's right, folks. It's German Darklager time. Yay. And we're gonna specifically focus on Dunkel, which is the German word for dark. Wait a minute. You axed the bock. I axed the bock, yeah. There's no box. No, it's gonna make you do a separate bock episode. That's another episode in our Darklager series. Yep. We'll talk about all things bock because you don't wanna put bock into a box because there's a lot of different kinds of bock. You got Doppelbock, MyBock, Weizenbock. All right, knock it off with the bock. And now with the Weizen Doppelbock. It's bock season, it's Doppelbock season right now. It's lent time. We just entered. I'm so sorry, we're not talking about bock today. What are we talking about Dunkel? We're going to talk about Dunkel and Schwarzbier, German dark beer and German black beer, which is pretty interesting to watch. There've been all these Czech dark lagers. So a lot of the local breweries are starting to now brew these German dark lagers. So we've seen some Dunkels come out and we've seen some Schwarzbiers. So I brought a mixture of beers to try from both Germany and from local options. Of course, I brought some food because with these types of beers, they are definitely wonderful with food. They pair with all sorts of different dishes. I brought some cheeses and some sausage because those are two classic things to enjoy with them. So today in the studio with me. I'm Greg, communications at Binny's. I'm Chris, wine. Hey, I'm Pat, I annoy Roger. Again, Dunkel is the German word for dark. So when you're seeing beers labeled as Dunkel, it can be a little confusing because it can apply to other types of beers. And I brought a Dunkel Weissbier to kind of make that distinction. But I wanted to start out with a beer from Munich. Munich is definitely, you know, we've talked in past episodes about the regionality of German beer and that a lot of Germans are fiercely loyal to whatever local beer. And that's basically all they drink. The rest of the country doesn't exist in their eyes. In Munich, before, you know, Helles caught on and before Pilsner became a thing, even before Weissbier was a thing in the greater Bavarian region, Dunkel was the beloved beer of Bavaria and of Munich. So why not start in Munich with one of the most classic Munich breweries and examples of Dunkel? This is the first beer from this brewery. We were trying some Hofbräu. Now Munich, their Hofbräu, Dunkel. All right. This baby is five and a half percent alcohol by volume. And if you want more information on the back label here, dark specialties were being made in Bavaria long before the advent of pale beers. Over the years, Hofbräu, Dunkel lost nothing of its popularity. With the rich flavor, it remains a refreshing beverage suitable for all occasions. A traditional Munich deliciousness. Deliciousness. Deliciousness is on the label. German add in too many syllables that aren't necessary on a word. Roger, I'm going to do you a favor. I am not going to make any yawning sounds in this episode. And you're going to blow me away with how delicious these are. This beer is refreshingly bitter. I was going to say that the bitterness stands out on this quite a bit, especially for the Munich style, which is usually all about malt. And there's plenty of malt here. But yeah, there are actually some hops. It's grainy. Cocoa puffs? Cocoa puffs, sure. Yeah, I totally think you're on point with the hops. The two varieties that they're using in this are Hercules and Perla. And it's pronounced. I mean, this is a dry example of the style, which is again, something that you don't necessarily know what you're going to get into when you purchase something that's a Dunkel. Will it have kind of a hop character or will it be more about the malt profile? So it's pretty interesting, the dryness level on this. And it's a nice juxtaposition because there's some malt character here and some of the classic descriptors we're going to be tasting throughout the day are caramel, chocolate, those are both going to be what you're getting from these deep malt complexities. This is actually decoction brewed too, which is interesting because- Wow, I thought most of the modern Germans gave that up. Totally. The Germans are all about efficiencies. They, for the most part, think decoction is an antiquated brewing technique that modern malting has made unnecessary, but I think to some degree, especially with Hofbräu, it's funny because in the United States, they're much more well known for their Is anybody going to touch this one? What's a decoction? Were you not on it? So decoction is a mashing method where you're doing it in steps essentially that allow different rest periods and different heating periods, right? It's for enzymatic activation, which is why they say the modern malting has made it unnecessary. You needed to do it. Obviously, we're noted enzyme enthusiasts around here. Oh, yeah. You used to have to do it to efficiently extract all the fermentable sugars you could out of malt. But as the science around malting improved, the need for decoction mashing essentially disappeared. It's a perfect way or the old way to hit your temperatures for enzymatic activation. Sounds more risky too. Well, you know. It's much more labor intensive. Yeah, because you're adding hot wort into the bigger mash tun, right? And bringing the temperature up to a certain point each time you do it. So you can do double or triple decoction and have different rest points. I think the one thing that you read off the label, Pat, that people might not understand or should understand about this style is that it's refreshing. It's a dark beer, but this one in particular is dry and crisp and easy drinking. A lot of people are afraid of dark beers because they think they're heavy or something. This is not that at all. I think if you were completely blind to seeing it, like you tried it with your eyes closed, you might guess it as a brighter beer. There's like a chocolatey quality to it. That's the only hint at any darkness and it's very light on its feet. Yeah. You got those Munich malts doing a lot of lifting here and it's very light on its feet. I was listening to a Weiermann malting company puts out these videos, and there's this guy named Axel who does the videos. He had a great bit where he was talking about beer drinking and he goes, we're designing, he has a great thick accent too. He's like, don't forget we're designing these beers. This is not about the sipping, this is about the drinking. Yeah. Again, remember that if you're drinking these beers in a half liter or liter capacity, having that hop cut there and not having this be a really rich beer is important. We should mention the accoutrements that Roger brought in for this. We've got some Thuringer sausage, which is smoked, right? Yes. Then another sausage with some Emmentaler cheese in it, Emmentaler cheese and some English cheese, a cheddar or something. Yeah, the cheddar. It's really good with the Thuringer. Is there any specific stage direction for this food or we just- No. I went with the cheddar for you for the rent. Normally, they'd be eating more like Swiss or German cheeses, but cheddar is one of the best beer pairing cheeses that exists in the face of the earth. It's delicious. It's delicious. It's going to be delicious with all these. Emmentaler cheese, again, it's Swiss in origin, but then your stone's throw from Switzerland. I think there's actually a protected Emmentaler version of Emmentaler they make in Germany. It's a very beloved cheese there. The sausages are from Worst Kitchen in Aurora, been around since the 19th century. Awesome place. I hadn't seen this sausage there before. It's called like Kasse Kreiner. So it's a sausage with chunks of cheese in it, traditionally. Yeah. So it's usually Emmentaler, I guess, is the cheese that's used. I actually bought the cheese before I saw this sausage. So that's why we're doubling down. We're doubling down on Emmentaler, assuming that's what they actually used. And in case people are wondering, Emmentaler is an Alpine Swiss cheese made of cow's milk and giant wheels. It is the prototypical Swiss cheese with the big eyes in it. And it's made all over Europe under various names. A lot of people might be familiar with like Jarlsberg, which is a knockoff of Emmentaler. Great melting cheese. Yes, indeed. So if you hear us making mouth noises, that's what's happening. It's the Emmentaler. I like that sharpness to contrast the sweetness that we're going to taste in some of these. This was definitely dry, but as we work our way through some of the other ones, we will get some more pronounced sweetness. That was Hofbräu Munich. Hofbräu Munich is available in six packs for $12.99. I figured to use this as an opportunity to try a brand that then also gets confused or looped in with Hofbräu House, which sometimes you see the packaging, it says HB. So some people refer to it as HB. The next beer that we're going to try is from Hofbräu House Friesing. What? What is this? This is from the town of Friesing is a little bit north of Munich, 43 kilometers to be exact. It is kind of what's considered definitely the old Bavaria region of Germany. But we have a couple of different beers from them and their Dunkel is definitely one of the, again, they approach it the same way as Hofbräu House. But this is another one of those breweries that they're pretty new to the American market as far as I know. I think we first saw them in maybe like 2018. So it might be a German beer that you haven't seen on the shelf before. And again, they kind of, you should see their packaging. They very much use the exact same type of packaging as Hofbräu House Munich. Like with. And as every other German brewery too. Yeah, but you can't see it here. But on the six pack holder, they use like people at. Oh, geez. Yeah. So it definitely seems deceptionally similar. You brought us the Aldi brand Hofbräu? No, I think they're excellent. I mean, they make some really good beers. So they've been brewing beer since 1160. So, I mean, again, with these ancient breweries, there's probably been gaps in time and it wasn't necessarily a commercial brewery. But one thing that's interesting is that the current brewery is from 1912. Pretty lucky if they survive the bombing. Most of these German breweries got pretty beat up in World War II. But according to their website, it's it's been in its current capacity since 1912. So like a lot of these German breweries, they a lot of them were located above a well. So they'd find like a really nice, good, pure, clean water source. So they have a hundred and six meter well right beneath the brewery. And then they're also located really close to the Hallertau region of Germany for hops. So that is one of the most famous pop growing regions in the world. If you've ever seen Jim from Sam Adams kind of standing out in the hop fields, rubbing hops like that's Hallertau. One of the most, you know, they're they're growing things like Middlefru and just these noble hops that are the bomb. So anyway, as far as the beer itself, what are we looking at for? Did you pass this around? It made its way around. This beer is notably sweeter than the Hofbräu Munich. I like it a lot with this sausage with the cheese in it. Very nice pairing. Just fuller bodied, not as bitter. It still has a balancing dose of bitterness, but it's notably just maltier and richer in both mouthfeel and flavor. I'm picking up like the tiniest bit of the like kind of funkiness that I associate with lager, like that kind of spicy funkiness. I can see that. Like the deep malt complexity or something, like kind of that really deep caramelization or what do you mean by funky? Yeah, I'm wondering the same. I mean fermenty. I mean fermenty. Yeah. Yeah. Bread-y, but lager-y. I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. Every time I've tried to describe it in the past, Roger's been like, no. I think maybe you're getting the... Here's something I read about recently that I never heard of. Chris, I'm curious if you'd heard of this, that some of the early malting grew out of a need for or a desire for people to drink something that was coffee-esque, but coffee costs too much in the 1800s, that Germans were malting barley and then using Interesting. That doesn't sound so bad. I mean, history of people doing that, I think about chicory coffee. Yeah, I think it's an economics thing, an availability thing during hard times. It's caffeine-free too. Malte makes its way into all kinds of beverages. I mean, you can get a milkshake with malt in it, right? I think this has a little more of a caramel, almost bordering on like butterscotch, and I think that like tanginess kind of is maybe what you're equating with like fermented a little bit. Yeah, tanginess, yeah. Like it's almost like if you drink, like when you said malt potter, it made me think of like Ovaltine or like a malted milk kind of thing. It almost is kind of like that a little bit. I mean, it has the crisp finish of a lager. Yeah. You know, so Roger, this has no association with Hofbräuhaus Munich. Correct. This is mind blowing. I thought they were the same name. Yeah, seriously. I mean, again, I think it's just that Hofbräuhaus is generic enough of a term. That's just what it comes down to is that, you know, people don't appreciate that that's there's a lot of Hofbräuhaus in Germany. Hofbräuhausen. So, this was 1160 when this was founded. We often talk about Weihenstephaner and how they're the oldest brewery in the world. I always got a kick out of that Veltenberger Kloster Brauerei is from 1060. So, Weihenstephaner has them beat by 10 years, but they're both nearing the thousand year mark as far as how old they are. The next beer is Veltenberger Kloster Barock Dunkel. Anyone that I know that has ever visited here, it's been like a transitive experience. It's an Abbey, and it's a monastery that's located on the, like a curve in the Danube River. It's like a Benedictine monastery. The monks, the main beer that they made was this, their Dunkel, and they're aging it in caves right below the brewery. And then they're pumping the beer from tank straight to draft. And people are just blown away with how amazing it is. Since it's this tiny little monastery campus, when they're actually making the beer for packaging and shipping it to here, that's done at a nearby brewery. Cause they just don't have the means at the Abbey. If you find yourself river cruising on the Danube, put this in your log book as a destination stop. There's a little cathedral on premise that's ancient and supposedly beautiful. But the beer itself, nice creamy tan head on this one. I'm all about this one. It's like a few shades off from the other ones that we've had, but it's just a little bit more amped up and sweeter and fuller and creamier and richer and more chocolatey and more confectionary. Just a little bit. I think it's the most well balanced beer we've had so far. Also only 4.7% alcohol. Still relatively dry for the style. One thing we haven't touched on is, you know, we're talking about dark beer, but all of these beers are kind of, I don't know, chestnutty. What would you call the color, actually? Good point. Yeah, they're later. We're going to try Schwarzbierss, which Schwarz means black. So this is like a really brown, deep brown brown. This is like an amber with a very dark amber with like kind of a ruby highlight to it. This is great with the cheddar. And everybody save a little Thuringer for the Schwarzbier. Yes. Hear that, Brophy? Authentic regional pairing. Don't miss it. Again, Weltenberg is north of Munich, about 60 miles, very old brewery, 1050. And the ABV, like you pointed out, a little lower on this one, 47. I couldn't find much info as far as ingredients went or anything. I did stumble upon that it uses Perla hops. So again, another favorite German variety. Delicious. Again, as I mentioned, this visiting this brewery definitely leaves an impression. And much like when we were talking about Czech Dark Lagers, visits to Ufflacku definitely inspired some brewers to make a Czech Dark Lager here. It was visit to Weltenberg that inspired the brewers at Dovetail to make a Dunkel. So we recently featured that in the Beer Buzz. So since this was inspired by Weltenberger, I figured we'd try them back to back here. Dovetail, Chicago's home. 16-ounce can, more for the rest of us. It just says Dunkel Lager. Indeed. What did you expect it to say? They can't call it a Munich Dunkel, it's not from there. So far, every one of these, I can't with 100% certainty expect to pronounce it correctly. But this one, Dovetail. Yeah, Dovetail Dunkel. Dunkel. Rolls right off the tongue. Yeah, that's great. They definitely have Onderbergs at this place, hanging on Bandoleros on the wall. Dovetail Dunkel. This is more mellow and sweet and easy drinking, but also kind of more simple. Little bit more of a grassy bitterness on the very finish. Yeah, I agree. Which I like. Oh, yeah, you're right. I'm thinking about the orange. Do you know what kind of hops I use on this? No, I don't. Oh wait, yes, I do. Well, in fact, yes, I do. Something noble. Hursbrucke and Saas. Saas would explain it. So Saas definitely. Go grass and spikes. Yeah, exactly. So Hursbrucke is a classic German hop and I think that's given it some of that woodsy, herbal, almost junipery taste here. Then you've got the Saas is the famous Bohemian hop that's beloved in all the Czech Pilsners and whatnot. 5.1 on this, so a little more crossing the five thresholds from, so it's a little stronger than what it was inspired by, but still by American standards, I mean, this is very sessionable beer, 5% alcohol beer. Oh yeah. You get definitely caramel and slightly honeyed sweetness upfront. There's plenty of hop cut on the finish. It's like wave of hop crisps, crispens it up. Which is interesting because from a brewery standpoint, they were kind of almost famously like too skittish and didn't use enough hops in some of their beers. But it's nice to see that they went dry with this. Like it's drier than it's... I really like it with the rye bread because it's got the same kind of family of spice. Yeah, just the same thing. Nice. It's really good with this rye bread. Where's this rye bread from anyway? Lilac Bakery in Lombard. Shout out to them. Nice. Nice. Very rye. No freaking way. Flip top bottle? We're having a Flensburger. This brewery stands behind the flip top bottle. That's like their defining characteristic. They're like, we sell the most flip top bottle beer in Germany. Every German brewery likes to say some stupid thing about how they, it's like manipulating sports stats. They're like, we sell the most draft pilsner, or we sell the most, so there's- Yeah, you butter knife the stats in some way. So theirs is this flip top and they refer to it as the Flensburger plop, when you open up this bottle. So, it's pretty satisfying. Can I have this little ring after? I need this little ring to come up there. You can get it off. It's not easy. I need the gross one to pry it free. They would like you to know that they're continuing to work on their swing top technology as one of their innovation areas. We remain committed steadfastly to making the plop even better in the future. I don't know how you improve the plop. It's a pretty solid plop. I don't know. There's a chance we can start getting their Pilsner in cans, which I am all about because it will reduce the cost exponentially for these adorable little but expensive as well. I know. You'll have to get your phone out and play a recording of the plop. Flensburger app. When we talk about Pilsners and how they vary by region in the world that they're brewed, we've been talking about Italian-style Pilsner and how that was influenced by the Northern German-style Pilsner. Flensburger is on the border with Denmark. It is the northernmost brewery in Germany. It's like 20 minutes from the border. That's why you'll see the picture on the label has a ship on it and there's windmills and stuff. Looks pretty Danish. Yeah, right? Their Pilsner is 38 IBUs. That's pretty happy. It's not quite as high as Javer. Yeah, those Northern Germans love to hop up to Pilsner. This beer is respectably hoppy. It is super light on its feet. This is the most crushable beer we have had today, I would argue. Definitely noble hops on the finish. I would say that the structure of this beer and its kind of identity is more light lager esque and then the darker malts are being incorporated for color. It's definitely lighter in color. Subtle flavor changes. It's got a brightness to it. Yeah. Definitely not weighty, not sweet by any means. A dark crispy boy? Yeah. I think we found it. Roger, how much is this adorable little 11.2 ounce flip top bottle? They're $18.99 a six pack. Oh my God. Because I could guzzle this, but I know that it's something precious. Yeah. Well, it's not precious, it's just imported. German beer has always been in this weird situation where for years it was sold in half liter bottles because in Germany they buy crates of beer, like a milk crate, and they're all half liter bottles. I wish I knew the sound by where I heard this, but being explained about the 11.2 ounce bottle, which is what we're drinking out of, some German guy was like- Was he Altenze Kinder? Yeah. He was like, those are for the old people or the ladies, or maybe children. Half liter bottles is the preferred method of consumption. They're heavy as hell, and by the time they get them here, and they're precious because it's an imported beer, a lot of German beers were $3, $4, $5, even a single bottle. When a brewery tries to put beer in a six pack, there have been a few breweries, especially smaller ones, that have had these higher price points. Augustiner is kind of the classic example. Historically, always hot. It killed the brand. They're one of the best breweries in all of Germany, but they've always had this crazy expensive six pack on the shelf that people won't touch with a 10-foot pole. So having these really expensive single serve bottles has been a challenge. Beer nerds are all about it. We're going to try an Ayinger, phenomenal beer. They're $5 a bottle. So it can be a challenge as far as, well, what do you want to spend your money on? And I think every once in a while, it's great to treat yourself to some of these single serve type things. And with this Flensburg, it's definitely a conversation piece. It's a fun thing to have out with guests and stuff. Everybody's popping bottles and it's quality beer. I just like to consider what you're willing to pay for a pint of very average beer at a bar, you know, and a $5 half liter for something great does not seem that expensive to me. That's very true. I mean, draft pricing nowadays for on-premise, if you're going to a bar restaurant. Don't get them started. It's off the charts. We were discussing this over while we're having beers in a moose lodge. Which offers an affordable alternative. Speaking of reasonable prices. Yeah. So, Flensburg, again, they make very quality beer. If you want to try that northern German style of brewing that's famously hop forward. This is a brewery that's really made a point of that being their identity. This is their Dunkel. It's 4.8% ABV, 28 IBU. It is an independent family-owned brewery. So that's cool. I do like supporting that. Been around since 1888. I'm not sure if you can catch them all. I'm not sure if you can catch them all. I'm not sure if you can catch them all. I'm not sure if can catch them all. I'm not sure if can catch them all. It's pretty modern and not that small brewery in Germany. Let's go to a tiny, independent craft brewery here in the States, in Lake Zurich, Illinois. He's talking about Roaring Table, Greg. Roaring Table, you say. All right, so Roaring Table is making quite a name for themselves when it comes to traditional styles. They're all about lagers. They have a pretty great shirt they sell that says, get off my lawn, I'm drinking lager. Beth and Lane are great people, and they're really focusing in again on beers that for years now have not gotten some of the attention they deserve, especially English style ales. They have two cask engines there and are pouring things like milds, ESBs, porters on cask, which is something that's very hard to find these days. And they're doing an excellent job with all the beer they brew. They've done some several different, I think they've covered almost every big classic style from Germany, as well as some pretty obscure ones like Franconi and Rotbier. But this week we got a chance. Roger, how many beers did you bring? You're bringing like a lot of beer. I brought a Brophy-esque amount. You better talk less and pour more than a- Roaring table... . fit this in one episode. So, okay, this is dark. And man, is it malty. Yeah, wow. That is Caramel. Holy cow. Yes, sir. This is really good. Really good. The chocolate really shines here, right? I mean, I feel like when people say, you know, oh, these old styles are too stodgy or they're not well known or some young person wouldn't want to, this is an old man beer, like this tastes like chocolate-covered caramel. I think there's plenty of young people that are down to drink chocolate-covered caramel. It's definitely chocolatey and caramely, but it has that kind of husky graininess on the finish. I like this quite a bit. It's still dry, but it seems more like candy-style notes than many of the others we've had. This is the kind of beer that I think people that enjoy the rich flavor of stouts and porters, but they've been hijacked in the recent past and become these things that are very dessert-like. It's pretty ironic because you look at one of the most iconic stouts in the world, Guinness. It's super dry. It's not sweet. America has had this reputation now for, when it comes to American stout, it's all these pastry imperial stouts. If you enjoy the coffee, this one doesn't have much roast in it, but if you enjoy the chocolate and caramel and roast that you get from stouts, I think that was part of the reason why Czech Dark Lagers really took off. I think you're going to find something to enjoy in the American interpretations of things like Dunkel as well, similar flavors. This, again, also delicious with the cheddar. This beer is good, but it's heavier. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, not necessarily a bad thing, but I'm going to drink less of these than I would the expensive Flensburgers. Right, but this could stand up to a richer dish. Yeah, for sure. A pork dish or something. This, too, I think, is like Chris was saying before. There's plenty of darker lagers that are sweeter like this. Yeah. I've been kind of like hand selecting some of the drier reiterations of the style, but I think this is still very true to style for a Munich dark beer. This is really good with the cheddar. It weaves right into it. I think, again, that sharpness of the cheddar really helps to compliment, offset the sweetness. All right, let's go back to Germany here. Oh, yeah. South of Munich, the Brewery, which unfortunately cannot be included in the official Oktoberfest celebrations because of the way maps were drawn. And I bet they're still salty about it, right? Oh, this is the beer I meant to talk to you about. I saw it on the shelf. I was like, what? Since when did they make that? In four packs, you mean? Oh, no, I'm thinking of a different Ayinger. What other Ayinger came in recently? Oh, the Bach. Bach. Yeah, I saw the Ayinger, my Bach, right? Yep. And I was I'd never seen it before. That's new ish. I think last year was maybe the first year. I've never tried that. I love this. So this lucky for you, it's in part three of our Dark Logger series. Yeah, Ayinger Bavarian Dark Logger is the way they pitch it on the on the four pack holder. What it's gone by for years and what the bottle says is Altbarisch Dunkel, which is a reference to old Bavaria. So this is definitely like made in the old Bavarian way, old Munich style, Dunkel 5 percent ABV 21 IBU. This has a perfumed kind of nutty complexity that makes it stand out head and shoulders above the rest. I totally agree. Wow. And the dense, creamy head. Yeah. There's so much that recommends a spear right off the bat. It's like it's like. Yeah, that's the best beer we've had so far. This is phenomenal. I it's very simply the best beer we had so far. It's like it's like with a Madeira layer on top of it or a sherry or something. I've always loved the spear, so I'm not surprised in the slightest. Holy cow. Yeah, there's something about Ayinger that's pretty phenomenal. My nephew and I were talking. The creaminess of it. Oh, my God. He recently turned 21. We were trying different beers and I got him their Doppelbach and he just loved it. And great. There's like this such a this has that same character as the Doppelbach in a way. Like it just you're like, I hope you enjoy that beer. You're going to be poor. Yeah, the mouth feel of this beer is so the mouth feels incredible. This is the kind of mouth feel that supposedly you would only get out of traditional decoction machines. Exactly. Again, that's not, you know, a lot of brewers will tell you it's not necessary today. Just with the technology behind malting, it wouldn't surprise me if Ayinger was still doing it, though. I'm not sure. I don't know if they are. That's why I was so surprised to hear Hofbräu is and I wonder if they're only doing it for their Dunkel. It's crazy. Because all I ever hear is that they're just like, nope, not worth the time, not worth the money. Between brewing technology and malting technology and the drive for manufacturing efficiencies. There's no way most of them are. I've even heard that you have to modify your procedure if you're using modern, modified malt. Really? So I don't know if they're using malt that's made in the old style. A lot of the American breweries that are making decoctioned beer are specifically buying some under-modified or heirloom malts when they're doing a lot of it. I'll have to research that a little further. But this is an amazing beer. It's a little more expensive, so maybe they do do decoction because they're not cheap. For years, they were only available in those half-liter bottles. This beer is now available in four packs of the 11.2 ounce for $13.99. That's not bad. That's not that bad. Totally worth it. Compared to American craft four packs. Smaller bottle, but what an interesting beer. You know what's funny? This is what I have referred to over the years as the psychology of price point. When you hear that price, and you're like, well, it's not that bad. When you break that down, it's not that different from the Flensburg. Somebody on the shelf is like, $18.99 for a six pack? No way. Then you see Ayinger and you're like, well, I'll give it a try. It's not terrible. You're totally right. Also, the bottle is tall and graceful. That little stubby one there. I don't know. It's a real thing, though. It's some discussion we have with producers all the time. It's like, $18.99, you're thinking of that purchase as the $20 bill. When it's this four pack for $13.99, you're like, well, it's good quality beer. Just a bit over $10. Yeah. I mean, come on. This is so good. The nose is just floral, honeyed, caramely. Try this with the Emmenthaler. Unbelievable. I'm really full of cheese right now. Yeah, I think you were wise to point out that that florality, Greg. That's why I love it so much with the Swiss. What a beer. Hey, look at this big dumb bottle from Urban Chestnut. So this, in fact, is the exact type of style of bottle that I am. It's called Dorf. Yeah. So that's what I was going to get into. We were trying to guess why we're still even receiving glass, because most of their stuff's in cans, and they're still working on bottles of this. Probably because they decided to name it Dorf beer. Dorf is a village outside of Munich, so again, there's being true to style and paying homage, but Dorf beer sounds pretty goofy, which is a shame because this is a phenomenal beer. They brew great beer at Urban Chestnut. It's really toasty. But it also has a lemon orange citrus lift. Yeah. This is up there with the Ayinger, honestly. Has the same mouthfeel. Yeah. I really like soft and creamy. That's plush. It's also ethereal. Oh, this beer is awesome. Why am I saying nice things about this? I'm just so annoyed at this big dumb bottle, but it's good. Hey buddy, it could come in handy for self-defense. Have you forgotten what else comes in big dumb bottles? Dragon Lady. Yeah. Okay. Fucking awesome. Fucking awesome. Yeah, that's good. Made with Munich, Carmel and chocolate malts. Then the hops are Perla and Hussbrooker. They're grown in the Hallertau in Volschnack. My theory is that they're nerds and they named it after Dwarf Fortress. I don't know what that is, but. Good enough. Could be. I mean, yeah, there's plenty of nerds in the beer industry since we celebrate it. I heard of Dwarf Fortress, which is that crazy video game. Yeah. Well, the nerds call it Dwarf Fortress. Yeah, because all nerds in all video games call it Dwarves. Dwarves. Dwarf. Yeah. Dwarfs. Well, anyway, excellent beer. It's pretty good. I am a fan. All right. That is, we say, Auf Wiedersehen to Dunkel with that beer. Our intermezzo between Schwarzbier is going to be a Dunkel-Hefeweissen or Dunkel-Weissen. Nice. Is this Ayinger? No, Weihenstephaner. Weihenstephaner. So, the conversation- Masters of the Hefeweiss. Yeah. The conversation with wheat beer starts and ends with Weihenstephaner. It cracks me up when local breweries try to make cafes and they're like, Yeah, we use the Weihenstephaner yeast. You could just buy Weihenstephaner, but I get it. People like to support local and have it nice and fresh. Freshness is always what they try to sing the praises of. Okay, so this is just a dark wheat beer. If this has inspired you to go try Dunkel and explore the category, I wanted to throw it out there that when you read the labels, you should be aware that since Dunkel is simply the German word for dark, you need to read the label fully and look for other cues as to, am I going to be drinking a Dunkel Lager? Is it saying anything like Dunkel Lager, Munich Dunkel? If the words Hefe or Weizen are anywhere, Weissbier on the label, you are drinking the other Bavarian specialty, a Wheat Beer, which is going to be an ale, top fermented and unlike lagers which are renowned for the- A GDA, not a GDL? Shut up. This is an ale, so it's all about the ale yeast, it's all about the esters and the phenolics. Hefeweizen famously will throw that bubble gum, banana, clove character. Depending on the brewery and how they brew and treat their yeast, you're going to have different levels of the ester that come about. Didn't Roger make us taste this beer mixed with the Jägermeister once? No, mixed with cola. It's murky. It smells like banana bread. It definitely has that banana character. That's Weissbier. I mean, there's a famous banana bread beer that we sell quite a bit of, and if you're a fan of that, I suggest you try Dunkelweissens. They're very much in the same vein, but a little pure and a little better flavor than you get out of the banana bread beer. But yeah, I mean, there's that sweet spice component from the yeast. I love the character of these beers that this is all just from the building blocks of beer and there's no adjuncts, no additives. This is mainly thanks to yeast. Well, specifically thanks to the German purity law. Which had to be amended to even allow wheat for Germans and their rules. A little bit of bubble gum. It has like an orange liqueur quality too. Yeah. I shy away from Hefeweiss normally just because there's only so much of that kind of intense aromatic I can take. But this is a really good beer. And I'm sitting here thinking that's like, oh, I could actually drink this beer. Yeah, because the bubble gum character is not over the top here. Some of them are just like so loud, it's ridiculous. But here it just seamlessly fits in with the malt. It's delicious. Hefees are not my favorite style, but if I'm going to drink one, I do prefer dark beers, dark Hefees. So Dunkelweissens, Weissens Doppelbocks. Anybody else in this boat? This takes me back to my earliest days of drinking. Yes. Right? You know, where you get one of these at a bar and it's like in the super tall glass. Yep. With a big wedge of lemon. Yep. And you have like four or five of them and then you have a splitting headache and somebody has to get you off of that other guy who looked at you the wrong way. When I was in college, I used to work for a company actually not far from here, just down Tui. We would go to that Buffalo Wild Wings after work a bunch and I would always drink the Linen Kugels Honey Vise. Yeah. That was served in a big stupid vice beer glass. Very sophisticated. Yeah. I mean, this is better, but man, this takes me back. Oh yeah, this is way better, but yeah. Well, I think that I got a great story with that too. I might have even mentioned this before, but I think it's worth repeating. I was at a bar once that had leader beer specials for Octoberfest, and I was drinking HB or something and I saw Hocker Shore listed. I was like, oh, I don't think I've ever had Hocker Shore's Octoberfest. So they plunk it down on the table. You know how with vice beer, they'll often serve a wedge of lemon or a circle of lemon? There's just literally half a lemon floating in the top of the beer. In your Octoberfest? No, it was just Hocker Shore vice beer. And someone was like, oh, it's German. Like just throw it on the menu. So it was a liter of vice beer. I'm like, oh, I don't want to drink a liter of vice. And Hocker Shore is one of those real bubblegummi ones too. Real spicy bubblegummi clovey. Coming up next, we have another locally produced Dunkel lager. This is from Goldfinger in Downers Grove. I messed up. I forgot. This was a last minute edition. Goldfinger makes some phenomenal beer. Tom over there is very knowledgeable about beer and extremely passionate about lager. All they make there are lager exclusive brewery. So you have to be really committed to lagers to make that work. And he is because the beer is exceptional that he's producing. He's a big believer in decoction. They're taking the extra effort to make these. They're fermented under pressure. So they're naturally carbonated beers, which I think is really cool. This is their Dunkel, which I haven't had in quite some time. It seems sweeter than the rest. Nice round mouthfeel. It is a little bit sweeter. Definitely a little sweeter. I love the nose, though. It's lifted and floral and also bready and more fruity than the others. Yeah, I get that. That dark fruit character that you get in some Bach beers, which you'll learn all about in the future. I'm really looking forward to that one. I hope we're going to have some Dunkelwieselbach. This has got a hop note to it, too, though. The finish is pretty crisp, actually. It might be a little sweet up. It's weird. It's sweet up front. It's got a little bit of that. Again, I equate it with like a tang from the really heavy maillard kind of deep caramelization, like almost when you start to get caramel to where it's almost burnt. I never heard you use the word maillard in reference to a beer roasting before, but I guess it makes sense. That time I was at Pat's house and he was cooking some veggie burgers for me and he goes, look at that maillard reaction. Now, that's a sense of pride. You guys have really grown a lot since hanging out with you. In the waist. This I think is, again, it has that deeply, deeply caramelized flavor on the finite. It lingers, but it's that paradoxical, like it's both refreshing and rich. And I think that can be a neat thing with dark beers if you can achieve that. Here's what I'm imagining. And I think this is saying the same thing. Like many of these have this wave of hop at the end that crisp, it's crisp, and then it cleans off your palate. And on this one, like the malty roastiness rides over that wave and then keeps going after it. So like the hops kick in towards the end, but then it continues to linger. So, yeah, it's very, very well made. So we're going to talk about and try Schwarzbier next. I was going to start with Köstritzer because it's like the canonical example, but I happen to have Goldfinger's Schwarzbier, so I think it might be fun to try that next to their, right after their Dunkel. Yes. Because I think it would be more relevant content to see how the two compare. I was wondering how we got back to a Dunkel from a vice. The same can. Okay, we're doing Schwarzbier? So he sort of I think in a way smartly calls this a Blacklager, since Schwarzbier is not necessarily known by the average consumer or they even know how to say it. So again, Schwarz is German for black. That Tom at Goldfinger, is there anything he can't do? Make an ale apparently. So Schwarzbier originated, it's popular in the German region of Thuring, and for all intents and- Wait, like the sausage? Like the sausage which we have in front of us. Yup. It pretty much disappeared from American stratosphere. The only brewery that was really keeping it alive was Köstritzer, which was purchased by the Bitburger Brewery, I believe. All right. Spoiler alert, it's awesome with the sausage. Check out that head, creamy. So this style, it's sometimes referred to as a black Pilsner. So the idea behind it is that you are using dark malts to achieve a coloration that is extremely dark to the point of black. But the beer is supposed to be what the English and what now we refer to as sessionable. So I assume they are using a de-bittered black malt then. You know, that's relatively new, I think. That's crazy to think. Because they don't have a pronounced roasty character to them. It's about the black color, but Köstritzer isn't that roasty, right? I suppose we will try it next, but this isn't. American breweries for sure are using de-husk, so de-bittered malt to achieve these without being acrid. Yeah, without having that acrid burnt character. Because this is so clean and sweet, oddly sweet. I think that's common for the style, is de-husked and... Yeah, definitely in the more modern times. I'm curious of what they were doing back in the day. Just drinking disgusting beer. I think about that sometimes. I've tried a lot of really disgusting beer. Every beer I've ever tried has to be better than beer in the 1700s. Right? It's amazing beer survived. I know. As human beings, we just love pounded beer that much that we put up with centuries of literal trash juice to get to what is modern beer. Well, I often think that when there's breweries like Dovetail and Art History that always talk about Rauch beer and they try to get people excited about Rauch beer, people are often like, no, I'm not drinking your weird smoked beer, I hate it. And it's one of those things where like- I'm one of those people. You can't just taste a little bit of smoked beer, like it's once you drink like two, the saying is you drink three of them, it's a very German thing. Once you drink your third one, it's all smooth sailing from there. But- Truly the malort of beers. But yeah, I also think that Rauch beer is a food beer. But to Brophy's point, the reason I bring it up is that until the invention of indirect kilning, all the old beers were smoky. Yeah. And you just didn't have any pale stuff because again, that was like all the beers were dark and all the beers had some level of smoke. So yeah, it definitely was nothing like we have a good. So yeah, we have a very good now. No, I stand by it. Beer then sucked. And I don't have to taste it to know this. So this Black Lager Schwarzbier from Goldfinger is a single decoction mash. Definitely a very sessionable 4.6. It's a really good beer. Really nice. This is better than the Dunkel. I think so. Yeah. It's just so easy to drink. And again, this is why people need to give these this style a try. Like I totally get that you see Schwarzbier on a menu, you're like, I have no idea what that means. You see Blackbier on a menu and you might think like, this is going to be heavy. This is going to be rich. It's the exact opposite. Yeah, you could drink this on a hot summer day. And it's so good with food because of that. So again, the Thuringer sausage is very much the iconic sausage of that region. So definitely try that with this beer. Yeah, Greg, try that with this beer. All right, guys, you made it. Unfortunately, a lot of... Holy cow, you have another beer. A lot of the other Schwarzbierss that are available, they're just like one-off seasonal type things. Some of them are coming out now. RIP Metropolitan. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I was going to mention that arguably the best one it was locally made was Metropolitan's. One of their best beers. RIP Metro Magnetron. There are some other excellent ones. Roaring Table made a nice one. Maplewood, keep an eye out for theirs. Theirs is called The Shade. Half Acre, their Schwarzbier recently was in their Continental Series. That was phenomenal. I thought it was even better than their Czech Dark Lager. Here's the fundamental problem with naming your clever name for your black beer. Yeah, exactly. The Shade even. I know. I know. What I would do is just call it Schwarzbier, and we can rely on that people can learn things. Yeah. You're so optimistic, Roger. The last beer we're going to try here is Köstritzer, the famous, this is the iconic German made. Köstritzer in Cams, huh? Köstritzer in a can. You know that's- That's stone keystone lawsuit. For like 10 years. The stone keystone lawsuit, you think that they got sued by Köstrit? Köstrit. I thought that was pretty good. You guys, I thought that deserved a bigger laugh. I've been sitting on that one for like four minutes since it pulled out of the thing. Is this it? Yes. Is this for me? Yep. Thank you. I knew you wouldn't pace yourself with the cheese. You absolutely called me. You knew it. Hey, can I have another piece of bread? Well, the first thing I'd say about this is I haven't had it in a long time, but it's sweeter than I remember. It's a little metallic on the end, too. What's with that? That's from that roasted malt. Oh, really? Nailed it. Think like Akron. Think like dry Irish stout. So Guinness. This is very much the dry Irish stout kind of approach to beer, but in Germany. To the point of that Köstritzer ran ads about they were very congruent with the whole Guinness is good for you. There are these ads that would say like, you know, this Köstritzer beer is good for your health. And the town of Köstritzer was definitely a health-driven town. Bad baths? Bad Köstritzer. So the BAD in front of towns is a reference to that. It's like a bath-type town. Like a spa town? Yeah, yeah. Like bath, strangely. In England. So a little bit of Emmenthaler left. I'm going to pass it around. So yeah, the Schwarzbier style again is great for if you want something that's refreshing, light, crisp. Some breweries have kind of, you know, said, ah, these are too thin, too boring. This I think is a perfect example where American craft brewers can make this style their own. A shout out to Metropolitan, and it was sad to see them go. I think that's exactly what they did with their Schwarzbier. They made it bigger without making it heavy. They made it more complex. There was more depth of character there. So I think craft brewers should not shy away from the style. I think it's a great concept. It should be something that's dark, but still low in ABV and easy to drink. But you could bring a little more character to the show than, like, Köstritzer is very light. I mean, this is definitely designed to be light. I like this beer a lot. Yeah, I mean, it's good. And again, it's the kind of beer you can drink a ton of. I love the way it goes with the Emmenthaler actually, right? I wish it had more hops. I think there's a lot of potential there, yeah. And it's nice and dry. It definitely has that roasty component. So again, this is much more pronounced than the Goldfinger too. So that roasted barley component is there big time. But another interesting food-friendly beer. And now if you see Schwarzbier on a menu, you are in the know, and you should order it. So guys, that's our dozen beer roundup of Dark German Lagers. Finally, you brought enough beers. It is really good with a Thuringer too. That was a GDL podcast. You mean **** long? Great damn Lagers. Thanks for bringing the food too. Hey, my pleasure, man. If I've tried to convey one thing here, it's that people need to be thinking about craft beer and food again. And it was tough when it was all just Hazy Boys and Pastry Stouts. But as people start trying classic beer styles, great beer is meant to be enjoyed with great food. So try, you know, when you're whatever you enjoy, try it alongside some of these really beautiful beers and you can come up with some pretty complimentary and pairings that make both of the things even better, which is really fun. Absolutely. So until I put together the Bach Podcast, that's it for Loggers for now, but yeah, get out there, keep enjoying Loggers. Thanks for listening to this episode. Please, if you enjoyed this, leave a review for us on Apple Podcasts. Make sure to tell your friends, your family, say hi to your mom for us and keep listening to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Until next episode, I am Roger. I am Greg. I am Chris. And I am Pat. Keep Tasting.