You are listening to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, I do communications for Binny's. Hey, I'm Pat from the Whiskey Hotline. Brett from the Whiskey Hotline. Oh, Brett's here. Yeah, Whiskey Hotline episode. We got a special guest today, Mr. Andrea Loreto from Elixir Spirits in Eugene, Oregon, right? Eugene, Oregon is correct. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming. Before we get into tasting all these really cool spirits, Greg hints it's an Amaro episode. Oh, how did that happen? Andrea, you want to give us a little background on yourself. How did an outwardly Italian man end up in Eugene, Oregon making delicious Amari? Actually, it's my wife's fault because as soon as she graduated at UCLA, she was offered a job in Eugene, of all places, Oregon. I didn't even know where it was. From California, we happily moved down there and it was, I think, November 2005 and it was raining and it stopped raining in June 2006. Yeah, that's how it goes. Because I got a costume to wear in Flip-Flop for Christmas in California. Oh, yeah. But I really love Eugene and the place where I am. The way that I actually started with Liqueur is just basically by chance because it is not a family tradition or anything. I'm just very nerdy and I love cooking. And I brought with me from Italy my grandmother's cookbook. There was an appendix about Liqueurs and I said, I started trying making Liqueurs and most of them were horrible and undrinkable. What was the first one you started with? You see, actually, it's out of these five or six or ten, they were all awful. But one actually was promising and was what then become after three years of tinkering, Calisaya, and that's been my first product. And yeah, it took me a while because usually for me to create a Liqueur takes a long time because first of all, I have to arrange all the different botanicals in the right proportions. And then you see everyone has got its little problems. I mean, each of them is different. So you have really to to invest time. And so I mean, yeah, after three years of thinking, mostly because I didn't have any idea what I was doing. So I tried everything, you know, and I got Calisaya. It was my first kid, my first love, I would say. What did Andrea do before making all the Elixir Spirits? What was your career? When I was in Italy, I was something called Dottore Commercialista. It is a sort of hybrid between a CPA and a corporate lawyer. And so I escaped as soon as I could. Real fun at a party, I am sure. Exactly. What part of Italy are you from? I am from Florence. Oh, beautiful town. Yeah. I vacationed in Florence just this past fall. Oh my God. Anytime he can bring it up, he brings it up every time. I don't know if you know, it was like the floor. Actually, the first conversations that I had with you, we were discussing trips to Italy. Yeah. Because I think I was getting ready to go to Plinio Amare. Oh, perfect. That was a question of mine is how did we end up with his awesome stuff? That's thanks to Brett. I think I approached you. I think that we got a customer request for Vair possibly, and I kind of did some research and found you. And I think that you had also done well at ADI, or one of the tasting contests. No, no, no. It wasn't ADI. Actually, I, well, I've done well in several, especially at San Francisco World Spirit Competition, because we have had, we gained a double gold medal for Vair and a double gold medal for the Fernette Fratelli Loreto. And this year we got a gold medal for Iris. So yeah. It's like how a lot of things happen with us. A customer asked me for Vair, so I started doing some research. I'm starting to worry that he was the customer. What if he was the customer? It was me. You request your own brother? I had a wig. He just came to the service, I saw a wig and groucho glasses. Excuse me. Yes. You have it, that was it. And I did some research online and knew that you were sold outside of Oregon. And so I called you and we chatted and here we are. Outstanding. Once again, the Whiskey Hotline championing dynamic spirits in Illinois. Right? So what's a calisaya? It's an amaro. So amaro, as you know, means bitter in Italian, and it represents a category of spirits that usually is drank, at least in Italy, as an after dinner digestive. So basically, it helps you with digestion after that you overindulge in food. That's not something we're familiar with, obviously. I know, I know. Me neither. I never do it. So basically, they're called amaro, but they're not bitter at all. Because the bitterness of some ingredients, that are actually originally very bitter, there are bitter spices, there are herbs, and there are barks that are really pretty bitter and potent. But usually, that bitterness is tamed by a lot of sugar. So in my opinion, one of the important things to do when you create an amaro, is also to balance well the sweetness and the bitterness of the ingredient. Because especially with Calisaya, that as I said, it was my first one, it's a very challenging one because the main ingredient is, well, I will say not the main, but the central ingredient is Chinchona calisaya. That is the natural source of quinine, and it's a bark that comes from Peru. Then in 1600, some Jesuit priests discovered from the local people that if you chew it, the fever diminished, and so they brought it immediately to Rome in 1632, and they brought it to the pharmacy in Rome, and they started using it to cure malaria. And actually, quinine is still today the best way to cure malaria. So did they transplant it? Is it grown everywhere? Yeah. After that, when they realize it, I mean, not in Roman time basically, but especially in, I think, that the Dutch and the British, the colonies, they started growing it a bit everywhere. It's truly the magic herb that made colonialism possible. Actually, yeah, no, no, it's true, it's true. And so it's a sort of a double-edged sword, you know? Well, it was the Amazon River Basin, but they don't plant it, because isn't it commonly planted, like in the Alps? Well, you see, they try to plant it everywhere, but ideally, I think that the best place was the Andes, so basically high altitude and sort of very wet and humid. And so it grew a lot in India, as far as I know. There's a book by an Italian writer that actually describes it as the biggest invention in medicine, actually, ever, because it saved so many lives. And Bill Gates is out here trying to genetically engineer mosquitoes. We could all just be chewing quinine bark. Exactly. Organs and tonics for everyone. But the idea is that that's a good example, you see, because to use one ingredient that is fairly common in Italian amarros, but it's extremely bitter. So you really have to use it with wisdom and to tame it some way. In fact, in Calisaya, there is also, apart from the sugar syrup, there's also some honey and there's also some maple syrup. It's really complicated. But you see, if you manage to tame the bitterness, then you get to something that is extremely pleasant to drink. And actually, that's how liqueurs were born. You see, because the legends say that once that this cinchona was actually brought to Rome and people tried to give it to the people who had malaria, they didn't like to chew it because it's too bitter. So back in the 1600s, they started mixing it with water, wine, honey, sugar, just to make it palatable. And so after a while, people started saying, hey, you know what? I mean, maybe it causes malaria, but it's good to drink. And so that's how basically liqueur were born, you see. So basically taking bitter herbs and taming them to have a pleasant libation. Check it out, I found a bottle. Oh, good, good of you. Now for the key ingredients, is it grown anywhere in the United States? No, actually I am Italian and I still purchase some key ingredients, I import them from Italy. Because for instance here, the main ingredient is cinchona calisaya, as I said, but it's not so easy to find in the States and people are not really accustomed to it because there are, for instance, of cinchona, there are 38 species. So sometimes you... Oh, wow. Yeah, people without knowing it, they send you the wrong species and that instead of this color, it becomes yellow or you know. Now, is this easy to tell? You're getting, is this dry and pulverized bark or are these like strips? I mean, if you're looking at bark, is how easy is it for you to tell, I've got the wrong cinchona or the right one? Basically, you have to make it to infuse it and then you see what color the infusion turned out to be. Because let's say that there are two main kinds, that there is cinchona sucyrubra that is the red one and there is cinchona calisaya that is the yellow one. Did you know this? No, I did not know that. This is brand new information to the Whiskey Hound. So basically, this is just two, but there are several others. And actually, Calisaya, the name of my liqueur, reminds of the name of this botanical name of one of the ingredients, cinchona calisaya. That by the way, the herb, I mean, the bark was named after apparently, one of the Peruvian people that introduced it to the Jesuit priest in 1600. His name was Calisaya since then was called Calisaya. At least the Jesuits gave him a little bit of credit. No, exactly. We're going to name one of the most bitter things after you. Well, and you said you soak it. How much of your experimentation originally was not just what the ingredients were, but how you process the ingredients? You know, actually, yeah, that's a very important point. You see, especially when you're working with the natural ingredients, so we are talking dried herbs, barks, dried flowers and so on and so forth, you have to infuse them mostly in alcohol in order to take out the extractives. The proof of the infusion is extremely important because if it is too low, it doesn't extract enough. In fact, some people try to do it using vodka, and that's 40% roughly by volume, and in my opinion, it's not enough. If you do it with pure alcohol, that's too much. And when I say too much, it means that it does really leeches out too much. So especially if you've got things that are bitter, like cinchona or other bitter barks, it becomes extremely difficult to work with them because they're really too bitter. You see that they've been over extracted. So it's really important both, let's say that the proof and the length of time that you do this process of extraction. Interesting. I've got a wacky friend who's making all kinds of herb and bark infusions and for moon worshiping or something and this is a conversation she's had with me a bunch is whether she should extract things in vodka or in neutral alcohol. Yeah. Somewhere in the middle there. And also if you process, do you just use whole bark? Do you grind the bark? No, actually- Do you power the bark? I mean, there are a number of different ways you could have- Of course. Of course. Thank you. That's another important point because I use what in Italy is called taglio estrazione, that basically means extract and cut chips. For Cinciona is chips. And then you see sometimes it depends also what's available on the market because if I get the Cinciona from Italy and it's already the right cut. Some other times I have to with other herbs, I have either to break them myself in a food processor, very simple and humble food processor so that I break them in chips. I chip them. You got to delegate out the slap chopping. Exactly. There's a special employee, the chopper. That's what he does. He's got a big hand and an ax. So yeah, even the cut is important. Because I have to use some herbs, some botanicals that are powder because it's complicated to find them at least here whole or in cheap. And so I use them powder, but that adds an additional layer of complication because you extract too much if you want. So you have to reduce the quantity. And also when you go filtering is not fun because it's just... All right. Have any of these gotten you a curious letter from the customs department at any point in time? Actually, no, no. But it's not that complicated. I mean, the problem, the complication is not so much to import them because there are all the documentation available. Plus, they're not things that are rare or protected, and so on and so forth. So you're talking about getting them into, rather than trying to sneak things in, you're vetting them for availability in the United States first. Even if it has to be imported. Yeah. And you see, for instance, for another liqueur of mine, I use the Iris root, and I used to have that to import it myself from Italy. But then I realized that here it's available. It just comes from somewhere else. I mean, it comes from Morocco, I think, but it's exactly the same plant, it's exactly the same cut. The problem with importation is not so much the paperwork as to really deal with Italians. They really don't make business with them. They're so bad. American bureaucracy is fine. Yeah, exactly. Much better than Italian laziness. No, really. Because you see, while on one hand, they really know their stuff. Because you see, in Italy, there's a great tradition, very ancient tradition of making liqueurs. So the market for botanicals for liqueurs is very well-developed and people over the centuries learn how to do it. And like here, they actually serve relatively new beasts. But then, you know, they're Italian. So, I mean, they don't reply. They send you different things. It can be confusing. So, yeah. This is pretty easy to drink, but it's also really vibrant and focused. Thank you. Yeah. So, the main botanical driver here is the Sinchona Calisaya. Can you share any others that might be in here? First of all, I would like to say that when I say the main ingredient, it's not a matter of quantity, but it's a matter of flavor. Okay. So, what gives the personality to the tamaro is one or just a few main ingredients. But around them, there are so many others because you want to tame it. You want to make something that is harmonic, that is not one-directional. So, another one that you probably can taste are the bitter orange extracts. And even there, in January, February, we make our own extraction. Basically, we just put the peel in alcohol and we keep them and we use them all during the whole year. Then there is some chamomile, if you want, that helps making it a tiny bit less violent, less brutal, less harsh. Yeah, so many more that I'm gonna discuss here. That's very- Well, you can tell the secret recipe. You guys want to throw out guesses? Yeah, it's very secret. Is there cinnamon? Of course. Because it's all over the place. You've got two more guesses, then I stop revealing. Well, there, and it's interesting too, because the sweetness to balance everything out is very layered. I mean, you can, not that you would pick them out without you having told us, but there's some substance there, and I'm assuming that's because of the honey and the maple syrup. There's like nice grip and thickness and viscosity. It's not just sweet for the sweetness sake, it's complexity. It's sweetness in mouthfeel, I think, and that was something that when Andrea was talking to our staff yesterday, we were talking about the difference between back sweetening to just add sweetness and back sweetening to add mouthfeel. That's something that you have to be very careful with. Plantation rums, for example, they always talk about their dosage of sugar, and some of them are a little sweet, but they tend to speak to them as, this is there for mouthfeel, not for sweetness. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, yes, it's true. It's also fairly mellow because we use to, we make our own sugar syrup and we boil it for over two hours. So that way it really becomes extremely, there are some chemical reaction when you eat the sugar, they actually change. Don't ask me into what, but into a different kind of sugar that on one hand is less prone to to condensate. So to give flocculation or turbidity and on the other, really you do feel the mouth feel changing because it's way more velvety, it's less cloying and of course, that's a process that takes time again. So it's just a matter of dedication and patience. But in the end, you feel it in the final product and that's especially true when you add to that the agave syrup and a touch of honey. Because in this liqueur, I think it needs it because it's pretty, as I was saying, chichones are brutal. So, we've got the... Is Calisaya kind of your flagship, what you would consider a flagship? I mean, is this your number one driver? You know, this is my first love, I would say, because it's my first creation. But after that came Iris, that I also like very much, but it's totally different. But I think that today, what really excites me is actually there, because it took me three years, but not because I didn't know what I was doing, like with Calisaya. It took me three years, because I wanted to make something that was green naturally without any type of dye. That's very difficult to do, right? Yes, it is. It is. It is because you can- Throwing shade at Midori right now, I thought. Wow. Because actually, it's difficult because the chlorophyll, that is what gives the green color, basically oxidizes and changes color with acidity, with light, and I guess just with time and with the alcohol itself. I guess leaves do turn brown. So it browns, yeah, right? Sorry? It browns. It gets brown. It becomes either brown or yellow, yes, and so it's not stable at all. I mean, because if you take, for instance, basil leaves and you put them in alcohol, after 10 minutes, you've got the most beautiful green that you can ever imagine. It's really amazing. But after one hour, it becomes yellow. So I mean, it cannot be, it's not reliable. I know because one of my passion when I was younger in Italy was actually chartreuse, so I knew it very well and I drank it a lot. I've always heard that it's not totally natural green. So I said, okay, let's see if I can copy what the monks are doing. But it wasn't easy because as I said, it took a while. But I mean, finally- I mean, they're using what? Supposedly like 100 some odd herbs or something, is that the claim? They say 131. 131? You see, yes. You could probably throw 131 herbs in here if you wanted to, but what are the money herbs? Exactly. I can even put 132 just for the bite. So I am very proud of what I did because it's very elegant liqueur. It's high in proof as well. It's 50 percent alcohol by volume. It's got a beautiful green color, and I think that smells amazing and actually tastes very well. Now, we have talked about this one on the podcast before, and what an apt substitute it is for a certain out of stock green liqueur. A certain impossible to find green liqueur. That's come up in this conversation already. Yes. Although another friend said it was closer to a liqueur di herbis than it was to said. What does that mean? Is that an insult or a nice thing to say? No, it's a Spanish version of the same thing. Maybe. I don't want to say that I created it on purpose to be a copy of anything. But of course, they say that the other green liqueur, the only natural green liqueur, inspired me very much. Then it turned out to be actually fairly similar. So it can be a good substituting. Absolutely. It's delicious. But savory, like this is getting a little bit more into my wheelhouse just because the sweetness is there as structure, but it's that herbal sort of what I would call savory mint. Like if you consider like basil, a mint or even oregano sort of in that, it leans more towards that savory earthy character. Yeah. And it's like underlined with an elderflower sweetness. Yeah. There is sweetness that is not given by elderflower, but that's the idea. I apologize. Some of the flowers, right? Well, what drives the small bitter component? What drives that slight bitter component? You know, I don't have, I mean, in my Verde there are not 131 spurs, but I don't remember exactly what's in there. But if I had to hold it. How are you going to make it again? Yeah. Well, it's written somewhere, you know, in a table. Well, if you, and it's also in its peppery. It's like greens in paradise, like white pepper greens in paradise. You see, sometimes it's a part of the floral and part of the, also the peppery-ness is given by the, by the iris root again, because it gives that final touch of a floral scent that I think it really pays, and it's also zesty. That's iris, right? Not auris, which is a different thing. No, actually it's the same thing. It is the same thing. Basically, auris is, auris root is the root of the iris flower. Oh, I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the whole root, but it actually rhizomes, so the balby, potato-like part of the root system. So that's what is in iris and in some other liqueurs, because I, it's like- And in a lot of gins then. And in a lot of gin, exactly, because it's what usually gives the floral notes, the high notes in gin. And that's why, for instance, a splash of that into a gin and tonic makes a difference, because it makes it really, really nice. Yeah, and so here, there is some of that as well. Yeah. I learned something today. Yeah. It was a beautiful accord. It really is. Yeah. So you sort of did this because you were following a family tradition rather than a cocktail trend. At what point in time did you start trying to link up with cocktails? Because these are all like critical ingredients to many classic cocktails. Yeah, of course. You see, basically, that was just by chance because as I said, when I started, I didn't know anything about the spirit. And probably had I known, I wouldn't have done something else because it's becoming very complicated both to produce them and to sell them. But I was lucky because in Oregon, there is a great mixologist tradition. And so these guys are making amazing, amazing cocktails. And as soon as they find a new product, they really embrace it if it's worthwhile. And also, I started at a time when liqueur, and I'm talking 15 years ago, so when liqueurs were still a bit foreign to the common, to the usual American. It was pucker. Yeah, exactly. And so there was really curiosity in the right people. Actually, I remember that as soon as they had the first few bottles of Calisaya with the label that I printed and cut it on my desk computer. So, I mean, it didn't even look very real, but there was an Oregon Distillers Guild party, and I got in there with two bottles, and they drank them immediately. And you see, overnight, I had the clientele. So, I mean, they really embraced my product very much, and they still do, actually. So, it sounds like you started in the kitchen. What kind of facility are you working out of now when you're creating all these? Basically, an expanded kitchen. It's something I always say. It's half a kitchen, half a crazy lab, and half a warehouse. So, it's three halves that really work together. And it's a very simple space. It's a warehouse that has been adapted to make this stuff. Also, because my liqueurs are not distilled, so I don't need a still. They're just made by infusion. So, I purchased the alcohol in bulk, and then I treat it, and then I use it in my product. I was going to ask about that. What is the base spirit? Yeah, you want to walk through the base spirit and the treatment process? The base spirit is the same for all our products. So, Calisaya, Iris, Ver, Fernandez Fratelli Loreto, Cafe Corretto, and also our vodka. So, and it is cane spirit from sugar, ethyl alcohol from cane. Okay. So, it still retains some kind of sweetness. The base on its own, that's what we... Exactly, yeah. And it's extremely gentle. Of course, we don't use it as we get it, because, I mean, we purchase it, and it's the best you can purchase, but still has got some conjurers in there. A little rough around the edges, so to speak. And so, we treat it, basically, with a very simple system. It's a three-phase filtration system. So, first, we run it through activated charcoal, then copper, copper piping, and then, finally, crash lava rocked. So, because the crash lava rock and the charcoal basically are extremely porous, so they absorb these impurities. And the contact with the copper basically neutralizes them. So, that's why when very good distillates are made in copper steel, right? Because the deep contact of the vapor and of the moisture, I guess, with the copper that really neutralizes part of this thing. So, we do that and we add the crash lava rock and activity charcoal. Well, and the copper is sulfur. I mean, that's the primary job. Copper pulls out sulfur? Pulls out sulfur, yeah. It's funny because you talk about charcoal filtration and everybody, there's a misnomer in the Berman world that somehow, well, it's a Char 5, which means that some people think, well, it's going to be smoky because it's just no, no, no, no. No, no, no. That means it's actually going to remove more flavor because there's more charcoal to remove flavors that flexes in between the wood in the center of the barrel, because that's all charcoal is the full. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah. True. Yeah. You mentioned that you were steeping orange peels, for instance, when we're talking about Calisaya. Now that you're well into this project and well into these products, how much stuff do you have steeping at any one time and is there now a length of time everything goes before you actually put together a batch? You see, it depends. It depends on how much I envision to sell. But you know, usually there are always, I would say, a couple of barrels of infusion per product with exception. Because also, for instance, it depends a tiny bit on which infusion we're talking about. Because for instance, the infusion of the Fernet, Fernet Fratelli Loreto, is always in oak barrels. Because I believe that the contact with the air and the contact with the oak itself, it really helps mature it properly. Other stuff, instead, it's for instance, Calisaya and Iris are in stainless steel. And also, there, it's, I don't want to make too much of the ver, because I'm still worried about the color, you know. Because the final part of the production of ver is actually, I mean, one of the intermediate part is to make sure that the finished liqueur has got a certain pH, so a certain acidity. And if I go out of that, it's not stable any longer. So I try to make it and use it as much as I, as quickly as I can. Because before I put it into the final product, I'm afraid that the infusion is very, very delicate. Sure. And when this explodes and becomes the number one saline liqueur in the United States, how quickly could you ramp it up if you needed to? Please? If you're making the order, then how quickly could you ramp that up? Really immediately. That's not a big deal. Because it's, I have, I mean, the difficult part is to get the big order. After that, I can take care of it. Well, traditionally, a lot of Amaro producers are gonna have essentially a big vat of concentrate that then gets cut down and watered down and sweetened. So they're gonna have their kind of master mixture of this, all their extracts, everything is in, is in a vat that's really on Amaro flavor concentrate. But then they cut down with some water and some sugar. Every once in a while, Pat gets a little bottle of it and springs it on us and makes us taste it. And we all can't taste colors for like three or four hours. I mean, and you have a couple that are produced, outside of Veer, are you essentially producing that way too? Or you have a master mix that when things are ordered, you can bottle off of? No, each of them has got its own infusion or infusions. Because for instance, with Veer, there are two and two different kinds of infusions that I mix. And with Fernet, there are again, two different kinds of infusion that I mix. And because we go back to the idea of the right proof for certain botanicals, so they have different proofs. So I have to make them separately. But I mean, basically for everyone has got its own infusion. So there are barrels and stainless steel drum for each of them. We all have Fernet in our glass right now. You want to speak a little more to the Fernet? Yeah, I mean, that's a love and hate relation I have with Fernet. You know, you don't have to make it. No, exactly, exactly. I was actually producing already Calisaya and Iris, and I went to my best client in Portland, and I asked them, look, I want to make something else, what shall I do? Fernet. I said, are you sure? Because I mean, who drinks it? Come on, let's face it. He said, no, he sells very well, and actually was right because he sells very well. But then I realized that there is a cult in the hospitality business, that in the end, the hospitality industry, that at the end of the shift, the cook, the owner of the restaurant, and the busboy. It's a hipster uniform. But then as I said, I've never been a fan of Fernet. When I was in Italy, the only way that I managed to stomach it was to put it in an espresso, because both the coffee and the other thing, they killed each other. So it was something somewhat, some way drinkable. That sounds like magic. You've never had that? I don't think I have. You have to, it's amazing. Oh my goodness. You take an espresso and you put a little shot, not too much of Fernet. It's amazing. I don't understand what time of day people do this, but I'm going to do it. And you could make Cafe Coretto and then make an alfaglato with that. Exactly. So anyway, the problem with me was that I never really was a fan of Fernet when I was in Italy. So when I came here, the idea of making it was a bit daunting because there's no much about it. So what I did, I started purchasing all the Fernets on the market and bring the one that I found in Italy and I started tasting it. And it was a very painful process. Again, you didn't have to do this. But the hipsters demanded it. I just imagine you're like, that's pretty good. You're like, well, I'm f***ing it up then. Just so you know, it's very, very common. This is a common behavior in the bartending community. You come in and automatically, whether or not these people like it, get a Miller High Life and get a Fernet from a large Italian producer, and drink them, and then the look on the face, you can tell that a lot of these, they don't really like Fernet either. They have to drink it. The Fernet face, but that's their uniform. It's a culture thing. Exactly. Okay. I try to go beyond that, and of course, I went back to, because I'm a bit nerdy and I have a collection of out of print Italian books on liqueurs and distillation and perfumes and stuff. So I went back to my bibliography and I found a few recipes of Fernet. And of course, I took out anything that is illegal to use, and I changed the way he's produced because they say, for instance, filter it through asbestos, and you don't want it. I revised. That's good. Thank you for that. There is no ambergris in this. I revised the original formula, still keeping, let's say, the core ingredient, like myrrh, like aloe, like gentian and so on. But I added something that I really enjoyed it, and I think it makes it more drinkable than others. And so I turned out with this recipe, and I'm very proud of it because you can actually drink it as you would drink it. It's really great for net. It's very good. It's got the mint and the bitterness, but it's drinkable. Yeah, is there wormwood for the bitterness, or what's driving the bitterness? No, it's mainly myrrh. Myrrh. Myrrh, and then there is aloe that just gives pure bitterness and no flavor whatsoever. And then there is some gentian that gives both bitterness and flavor. And as far as bitterness, but aloe, like aloe, like the aloe plant. Yeah, very bitter. Yeah, interesting. It's pure aloe vera. It's pure bitterness, pure bitterness. In fact, you have to use very little. And then there is the old way, I mean, a lot of other things around it that makes it palatable. And I think that, yeah, I'm very proud of this as well, because it was sort of hard for me to make it. It has like a molasses depth. You know, again, I think that this is due in part to the process of how we make the sweetener, the liqueur, the sugar syrup. But also because we really rested in oak for a long time. Oh, it's okay. Yeah, and so over the years, I think that the flavor of the oak itself has disappeared, but there is still this contact with the oxygen through the staves of the barrel that actually matured. In fact, in order to make it quicker, I tried not to do the maturation stage, and actually you do feel the difference. You lose part of what you were just saying. That's really interesting. And so on this one, you can't ramp it up right away. You have to deal with what's in the barrel. No, I can. Oh, okay. I buy some more barrel. It's really, yeah. Well, this is fabulous. And if it's a hipster uniform, I will wear it. But I'm not skinny, so it won't look good. Well, I mean, it doesn't matter. You still wear the skinny clothes. Yeah, you just look bulbous. Just a keel bossa walking down the street. No, but the difference is in people don't, you know, it's too bad that people don't do more exploration like you did within the category because there is one, you know, in the United States, there's one main driving for that and it's good, but it is, But there are so many others that are so good. Where you still get that combination of bitterness, but it's not just the bitterness, it's every other flavor that's around it and the structure in the mouthfeel. Yeah, in fact, I think that to make a good liqueur is basically in everything. What's important is to find the balance because you can have 131 ingredients, but if you really feel one too much, you really just feel that and then you lose the whole harmony of the liqueur. So I think it's very important that everything is balanced. And so even overly bitter or overly sweet, I think that these are mistakes that are made and usually it's bad. Worth noting the Fernet is 40 percent like most other Fernets you're going to find on the shelf, whereas like Calisaya, what's that? 35 or 30? 35, yeah. Calisaya and Iris are 35. And Calisaya is quite high for a Campari-adjacent reddish-bitter as well. I mean, Campari is kind of high, but most of the others are in the 20s or lower. Yeah. Well, even if I have to say that that's what I noticed when I was in Italy. In fact, I wanted to make something that was a tiny bit more boozy than the usual Italian Amaro. But lately, as I browse on the shelves of retailers, I see that most Amaros probably went up in proof. I think that around 35, 38. Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong, but I had that impression. Yeah. That's 30, 35 percent. As it is, Iris that I see a bottle just appeared. Oh, yes. We have Iris now. Yeah, we do. For net tastes like tobacco to me, like the famous one, and this is more like tea leaf and it's more subtle and it's way more graceful. That's all I got to say. Well, no, but that's why I asked about what the bittering agent was because it was bitter and it didn't seem like wormwood. Wormwood is kind of people's default for bittering because it's expected. But the bitterness wasn't like the worm. I don't know the way it was mint. There's almost like a slight hint of mint and an herbaceousness that comes through with that bitterness. There is mint because actually there is every fernet recipe that I studied called for it. If you taste the famous fernet, it's very minty and probably it's a bit overwhelmingly minty. Since they were not happy in Italy, they also made the mint version of the minty thing. I mean, it's really, but yeah, there is mint because traditionally apparently there is mint. Actually, but as I said, I'm very happy about it because I can drink it with pleasure. Also, it just won in 2022, I guess, double gold medal at the San Francisco World Spirit Competition. I mean, it's good. It's a great- Indeed. Yeah. As a complete aside, Pat, if you took this fernet and you dialed up the intensity, like you reduced it, and then you added a bunch of salt, you would get that Icelandic liqueur that we had that one time. Opal? It was, boy, howdy. All right. There's one called Saltamaki that came from- Yeah, and then the- A salt caramel acavit. Yeah. That was salt caramel fernet. Saltamaki a dala or something from Bitterman's? From Bitterman's Dala Spirits, which was just a three or four different fernets slash bitter liqueurs that came from an Icelandic producer. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Salmiakadala, that's what it was. What the heck is iris? It's a liqueur, of course, and it's made, let's say, the main component is the root of the iris flower, as I call it, the rhizome of the iris flower, so the balby part of the root. And I got into this by chance because I was making just the calisaya back then, and I was looking for another type of liqueur or amaro that was not bitter. So, I mean, I started looking in my books and I found some recipe for basically what then became iris. That was actually calling for iris root, and I didn't know anything about it, and I started making some research. And actually, it's got an amazing tradition, this root, because it's, first of all, the emblem of Florence, the iris, comes from that. And also in Tuscany, they used to plant the flowers, the iris between the vineyards, because they used to think that it would lend some of this floral, this sweetness to the grapes. And that doesn't happen, but I mean, but still there are some vineyards with these beautiful things. The interesting thing is that it doesn't immediately taste like, I mean, it doesn't immediately has this scent of flower, but when it's fresh, when it's just cut, it's like a potato. Basically, it doesn't smell anything. And it takes between three and five years to develop this thing. You're talking about the rhizome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the dry rhizome. It has to be dried and let it rest for a few years, because then it becomes, it develops this scent. And the scent, it's amazing because it's, yeah, because it's very floral. It's like blue flower, violet, and it's very, very nice. A potato seller full of orris root. Yeah, how big is one of these bulbs? Just like that, probably what this is. So like the size of a baseball? Yeah, baseball, racquetball. That's the size of a new russet potato. But probably even small, yeah, something like that. Two and a half radishes. And it's got the sort of- Fingerlings, two fingerlings. Fingerlings. V-shape so that you have to, traditionally, there were people, I mean, basically the farmers that were selling it, that they were there with a special knife and they were cutting it because you have to peel them. You see, so in order to peel it in here between the V, it was very complicated and time consuming and so on and so forth. In fact, in Italy now, they don't peel it anymore. And the majority of the iris from Tuscany is sent to grass in France because they use it to make actually perfumes. And so you don't need to have it decorticated. But the one that I use has to be decorticated because it's very, very, very spicy. If we leave the peel on, it's really, I mean, brutal. Really? Yeah. Instead, this way, it's more tame. But you can actually still feel it when you drink it, a tiny bit of zestiness. So it's a wonderful product to work with. So it has to be harvested, sliced, and dried, and then it still takes multiple years before that actual floral character develops. And that's just some kind of enzymatic reaction as it sits there aging. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So you can just take it out and cut it. Plus, some iris, especially the ones that are common here in the States, are toxic. So if you use- That was my next question. Is there a particular iris you have to use? Yeah. Yeah. So don't do it at home. Because there's like thousands of different kinds of irises, right? Basically, there is the iris that is called Florentina or Pallida. That basically means pale iris. These are the ones that are actually edible. But others like the bearded iris that is in, for instance, in the States, don't do that. You're not going to be- Poisonous. Yeah. Well, I wasn't at risk of doing that, but you listeners at home, don't. Well, I mean, he had you pegged for a vegetarian. All right. This is a magical flavor. This is so complex, but it's so fresh and lifted and appealing. I can't think of any analog of this on our shelf. Is there a normal spirit analog? I mean, there's other floral liqueurs, but they're all so weighted down by a lot of sugar. Exactly. This is worth noting again here, none of these are cloyingly sweet. They all have some sweetness, but it's so well balanced and it's restrained and it's there for this plush body, but none of them are sticking to your teeth kind of sweetness. My brain goes to elderflower liqueur, but this is so much more herbally complex. Yeah, there's a little bit of spikes and all these other little notes that just aren't in the more simple. And you can pick up the spice on the nose. It would fit as a use as a drier, more intense version of elderflower liqueur, which tend to be a little bit softer. To me, at least softer and sweeter. Yeah. You could almost use it like a, and I'm trying to think of the gentian, like there's enough there that you could use it as a substitute for a gentian. Yeah. I bet this would be a nice dry substitute for a curacao. If you're going to use a Ferrandri curacao or even any other type of orange liqueur, or like in a margarita, I would sub this instead. I bet it could be interesting. There's kind of a citric lemon quality, but I think that's more in like how it's bright and fresh and not in like citric. You have a good palette. No one has ever accused me of that. Is there lemons in there? Yeah. There are lemon extract and grapefruit extract as well. Just to complicate my life, but they're in there. And then the sweetener again, is there honey involved here? No, no, no. It's just Calisaya that I have to tame the cinchona, so I add the touch of agave syrup and, but otherwise the sugar syrup is the same. It's just your sugar reduction that you do. Yeah. And this is extremely, it's a beautiful liqueur. It works. Actually, as I was saying, it's used very much to make perfume, this ingredient, because not only it's got its own personality, that is a very strong scent of violet and blue flower, but also it keeps together, it keeps together all the other element of the perfume. And the same thing happens in the cocktail glass. It's amazing. I mean, this thing really shines for cocktails. It can be a tiny bit overwhelming because it's not overwhelmingly, but it is sweet. So it's floral. So you have to be prepared to drink it straight. But for instance, if you make a cocktail very simple with the two parts of a freshly squeezed grapefruit juice, one part gin and one part iris, that's it. You shake it, you pour it. It's amazing. I mean, it's just very simple. Or for creme de violette or... Exactly, exactly, exactly. Perfectly. Yeah. Beautiful liqueur. All right. And these are all made with the same base. Same base, same alcohol and same sugar. Of course, what changes are the infusions. And the treatment of the alcohol is the same for everybody, including the vodka that really is extremely soft. Then there's another liqueur that I think you must have sold it already. So good for you. Thank you. It's the Caffe Corretto. It's a coffee liqueur that is very peculiar, very coffee-like and very different from any other coffee liqueur around. But the coffee liqueur, I didn't want to make it. I never thought about making a coffee liqueur, honestly, because if you think about coffee liqueur, you've got immediately certain names on your head, right? On the horizon. Oh yeah. That is cheap, that is cloying, and I mean, most of them are similar. But I was in Portland and I met the owner of Caffe Umbria. I think now they opened a couple of stores here in Chicago too. They've got the coffee roastery in Seattle and a few stores in them. There's actually one right by my house. I was talking to some Australians and they recommended it. They're recommending it. It's very good coffee. Anyway, and then he told me, oh, you're Italian, why don't you make a coffee liqueur with our staff? No, I don't want to do coffee liqueur for the reason I explained. Because if I want, I have to sell it and if I sell it, I cannot sell it at 40 bucks when something else cost 15. So I said, okay, basically, we decided. I said, okay, let's give it a try. And I started trying with lots of different kind of first with different coffee blends that I found at the supermarket, as I usually do, testing and testing. And then I started with their own blends, the blends of Cafe Umbria. And one of them actually worked miracle. So I made it. I made this coffee liqueur, but I made it with the same approach that I use for the other liqueurs. So first, I take the ingredient, then I make an infusion. So I got coffee, ground coffee, freshly ground, because it sends it to me immediately as soon as it's toasted. And I put it into the infusion, and then I use that infusion to make the coffee, to make the liqueur. The problem is that it's basically very, very complicated to filter, right? So that's why most, I guess, that's why most other coffee liqueur are made with coffee, or with concentrated coffee, while this one is made by a direct steep, steeping of the coffee grounds. So it's very coffee-like, very coffee-like. And since I'm nerdy, I try to add something else, right? I wanted to make a coffee liqueur different by all the others and invent my own thing, but nothing really worked with that. And so in there, there is just coffee ground, water, our sugar, and alcohol. You just gave us the whole recipe. Yes. Basically, yes. This is like the only coffee liqueur on the shelf that doesn't have a bunch of sediment in the bottle either. Yeah. Again, because... Good luck with the filtration. Yeah. Yeah. It's painful, but it's effective. Well, you said, and it's also, that's a very expensive process. I mean, if that's how you're getting the flavors, that's, Wow, is it good. This is pretty great. It's pretty great coffee liqueur. Yeah. Such a restrained sweetness too. Even some of the best coffee liqueurs we have that we really love, have more cloying sweetness to them than this does. The roast is kept in check. It's like a middle level. Yeah, because I tried a lot of different blends. And finally, I found that their blend is called the... Anyway, the red one, I don't know. That the work really won. That's another good product. Thank you for going downstairs and picking it up. But it is. This is like a beautiful concentrated cup of coffee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You see, and actually, I invented a very simple cocktail that is just, let's say, three, four parts of this and one part of Frangelico. You mix them and then you float some cream on top. And that's it. Amazing. It's like almost a mocha quality, like it's more lifted. That sounds terrific. A little bit of hazelnut in there wouldn't hurt anything. Exactly. Also because the other one is very hazelnutty and very sweet. So it's really just the touch in that probably makes it even better to drink. I mean, but yeah, you see they're all my kids. I cannot really choose the favorite because everybody, there's a little story behind each product. And a little story and a lot of effort. I mean. Yes. The little story and a lot of effort because yeah, they're not easy. Especially for me that I never did it before. As I said, I was a lawyer, but I love cooking, but I never did anything with spirit at all. And so it took me a while. But I guess that most of the experimentation went to make the very first one, Calisaya, because after that, apart from from there, that actually drove me mad for the color. But otherwise, I mean, now I know my way around. Brad, we need to visit his room full of infusions. Oh, absolutely. It sounds like a mad scientist's lab. Well, we should probably talk about the vodka, because it's truly outstanding. And you don't hear me say that about vodka very often. Vodka? You don't. It's true, he doesn't. Well, thank you. Wait, you got to give it a little shake there, because thank you, Frank. Why you ghost logger up this vodka? We have to hire someone to walk around and shake up the bottle every 15 minutes or so. You know, actually, again, since I'm pretty nerdy, and I used to make remote control planes. So I mean, I really enjoy it. Yeah, I really enjoy making my own contraption. I made the system where a little tray, where you put it on and it spins. And so this thing are all suspended and there's a light from underneath. It's like a magnet spinner for like a yeast propagation. That's how it works. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty nerdy, but it really works because you get people come half asleep in the stores. Wow, what's that? Dude, you are really going to like damn Farber. Yeah. So, this is Fett. That is my... I wanted to do something that was a bit easier with no concentrate, with no infusion and something that was easy to sell and easy to produce and that make my own life easier. And then I said, okay, let's do vodka. What can it be, right? After all, it's vodka. It's just water and alcohol. And I went through the process again, like I did with Ferdinand, because I didn't know anything about it. And I started purchasing and drinking all the possible vodka. Yes, there is a difference between vodkas, okay? Everyone has got its own characteristics. Some are not great. Some are very good, but some are not. So, I mean, really, I sort of trained myself once again. And I got to the point where I actually made it using the same filtration system that we use for all the liqueurs. And the base spirit is the same once again. It's ethyl alcohol from cane. So, it's really delicate. It doesn't burn because all the conjures has been taken out by this filtration process, but still keeps a tiny bit of the sweetness of the sugar cane in a way. That really makes it, in my opinion, very easy to drink. Then, of course, I didn't... It's like drinking water. It's like drinking water. It's ridiculous. That is bizarre even. This is hydrating. Really messed up. But don't hydrate too much, otherwise, you talk too easily and it's not good. Don't get your glasses right. Then, of course, I wanted to make a difference, and so I added the pure gold flakes so that there's no globe effect. That are nice. Then even if you make something that is mainly vodka-based, the cocktail that is mainly vodka-based, they float in your glass. So it's nice for instance, it's great for martinis. It's really amazing. Yeah. This one has got best of Northwest double gold and has got the gold at the Beverage Tasting Institute last year. So I mean, people like it. It's one of the most neutral vodkas I've ever had. I agree. I don't think I've ever had anything like that. Yeah. There's very few I would compare that to. Thank you guys. So easy. Very nice. This is really good stuff. Aren't these awesome? Do you have anything in development that we should be keeping an eye out for? I would say no because I'm pretty busy. But- If you want to make money, you should make some bitter red and bitter orange. Well, that's what the Calisaya is for. Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to be 100%. I'm not making a Negroni with that. It's good. Oh, no, you should make a Negroni with that. I should. Oh, yeah. You see, I mean, here, if you use that instead of the typical main ingredient of Negroni, you use Calisaya for a Negroni or a Boulevardier. I'm into those drinks. Those are my drinks. Try it because it's really amazing. It changes radically because the bittering agent- Irish and a Boulevardier. Yeah. That sounds great too. That sounds great. Yeah. Because the usual bitter liqueur we use for Negroni and Boulevardier, it's very good. I grew up with that when I was a kid in Italy. So we drank on the beach, we saw that it was amazing. But it's very mono-directional. I mean, it's that. Instead, if you use Calisaya or even Irish, you've got a whole range of different flavors, plus they're higher in proof, and so that helps keeping the thing up in proof. Another way you can enjoy Calisaya is just simply adding it to one part Calisaya and three parts of bourbon or cognac, armagnac, anything that has been aged in oak. It really makes an amazing drink. It's a stronger alcoholic strength option for you, Greg. That's all we normally have to tell you. I do like that aspect of it. And if I'm shaking some bitters into those things too, this has that complexity built into it already. Yeah, exactly, because I am not a fan of bitters, I have to say. Well, yeah, pick the wrong career, man. No, no, no. Because I think that they were developed during prohibition for a reason, because basically you have to kill the flavor of what you were drinking because it was made in the bathtub. And so, I mean, they had their own... Today, I don't know, I think that if you have a very good ingredients, probably it's a bit superfluous. But I mean, that's my take. That is a wrap right there. That's the lesson. Yeah. No, it's good because there's a man in a cowboy hat downstairs waiting for a meeting with Brett anyway. Okay. Okay. Well, I learned something today. Oris Aziris. There you go. Cool. Thank you. And that these are... That's all you took away from this. Incredible. I don't usually want to drink vodka, but I kind of want to drink something. Vodka is something else. Now you're tempted. Yeah. That's good. So, thank you so much, guys. It's been a pleasure and an honor being here and I really enjoyed it. Thanks. Andrea, I really appreciate it. Thank you. And thanks to our listeners. Listeners, if you enjoy this as much as we enjoy doing it, help us out, leave us a review, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your mom. We'll be back in your feed in a week with something probably not this good. Until next time, I'm Greg. I'm Pat. I'm Brett. Andrea. Keep tasting.