Hey Jeff, you like port? I do like port. Do you like port wine cheese too? Port wine cheese, yeah, I always get some of that around the holidays, and I don't know why. I don't know who gives it to me, it just winds up in my fridge. Delicious, but you like the regular port wine much better. Right, absolutely. If I can pour my port, I think it's better for me. Exactly, it's how it's meant to be. Well, I love port. I love all fortified wines, so port is a favorite of mine. So today, we're gonna talk about everything port. What comes to mind when I say the word port? I know old, tawny, Portugal. Those are pretty much fortified. I mean, those are the words that pop into my mind, but I don't know if they're accurate. Well, I brought in somebody who really knows the ups and downs of the port category. His name is Mike Kush. Hi, Mike. Hi. Thanks for coming in today. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, we really appreciate it. So tell me about how you ended up in Portugal, in the Duoro making wine. I am a proud member of the Portuguese winemaking community, but maybe you can tell I don't really have a Portuguese accent. I'm a Chicagoan. I was born in the north side and started my winemaking in California. And at the time as a young winemaker, it was said to me, if you want to get a doubly amount of experience within one year and you're willing to travel, you can go to the southern hemisphere because the seasons are opposite. And I had lined that up. I had an opportunity to work in different parts of the world, including Burgundy and the Molesle. But I had had an opportunity to meet somebody from Portugal and spoke to me a little bit about what was happening in the Duoro, the region that traditionally the port wines came from. And it was very exciting. So I had an opportunity to go work with a very good producer there, NiePort, and that was my introduction to the region. And it's been just a passion for us since. And so it's been 10 years and it's not just myself, but it's also my wife and not only Portugal, but we also do do some work in New Zealand as well. So we go back and forth and then stop in Chicago in between for a little bit now during the holidays and then a little bit during the summer. And you bring a young child with you a lot too. We have a young son just over two years, and although he's just two, he's got three vintages under his belt. Right. What? More than me. I can barely get three words under my belt. He's a little bit too young to be fed pork. He certainly, in terms of the grapes, the pork grapes before we turn that into wine, oh, he's more than happy to eat more than his fair share. What a sweetheart. Which impacts our yields a little bit. I love it. Well, maybe we'll name a bottling after Baby Austin someday. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about pork. Can you give us kind of your basic definition of the category of pork itself? Oh, sure. So, pork, which I mentioned, the region that I do my work, which is Duoro in Portugal. So, it is a fortified wine style. So, it's fortified means fortified by the use of a spirit, a brandy that in Duoro in Portugal be called Aguardeiro. And so, it's partially fermented. So, it still has residual sugar. It's fortified to upwards of 20 degrees alcohol. And then depending upon its aging, it can turn into a couple different styles. The aging is really what determines the style of pork in the glass. Oh, absolutely. The quality and the aging. In general, although you can think of it in a few different ways, pork can be rather simple. It can often fall into just two different categories. You have Ruby Ports and you have Tawny Ports. And Ruby Ports are those ports that have more of the dark fruits, cherry chocolate type flavors and aromas. And then you have your Tawny Ports, which are those that have oxidative aging, and where you get more of those nutty spice fruits, orange peel, kind of a complexity, a different sort of aromas. And in terms of its color, has a little of that sort of tawny color that kind of lends it to the name. Right, because port, inherently, there is white port, but most of it that we're going to talk about is red. The lion's share is red, made of red grapes. That's right. And how many grapes are permitted? Approximately. I think there's upwards of 80 varieties that we might have available to us in Duoro, and there is an entity, which is the IVDP, that regulates port wines, and there are both minimums and maximums for certain varietals. So there might be a few varietals that are more favored than other varietals. And I understand this blending concept to be sort of historically because everything was a field blend in the Duoro. So they didn't really know what grapes were where, or certain varieties were just planted, interspersed amongst others. We didn't have a whole lot of monoculture. So they just kind of said, let's let them all in. Absolutely. Yeah. And it still exists today. It's a real treasure. I've just come from the Duoro just a few weeks ago. And it is a real treasure, some of these old vine vineyards that in Duoro we just call a Viennish Village. They're field blends. And there may be 25 different varietals that might be in that. But yes, you also find vineyards that are planted monovarietally featuring some of the great ports and Duoro varietals like Targa Nacional and Tinto Harish and Targa Franca, among some others. So when you do go to Portugal, what does it entail for you? I mean, you're on the ground. What's your goal? Where do you do drive right out to a vineyard? Are you going to someone's home? Is it a big business? I mean, what's the feel there? So what I do, the work that I do, because I sort of mentioned, I go between New Zealand, but also Portugal, it's during the harvest time. And that's how I'm able to do that, because the seasons are opposite. And so I generally arrive in the days just before the harvest is going to happen. So the growing season is kind of well under the way. And I'm fortunate, I make some of my own wine, under my own label, which I call Chasing Harvest, along with my wife. And then I also work with a fairly well regarded kinta in the Duoro as well. And so you walk the vineyards, you taste the grapes, you make some decisions on when to harvest and how to harvest. And then I am generally there every day for many hours out of the day. Every step of the process from the harvesting to the wines are resting in Barrel. And that's when I begin to make my way to the other side with a stop over here in Chicago. Cool. And kinta is synonymous with winery or maize, or domain, more or less. Or farm, perhaps. Yeah. The Duoro is an interesting region. There's upwards of 40,000 growers, but a vineyard that is a little bit larger is known as a kinta or a farm in Duoro. So they can be quite large or, but mostly they're very small in size. Yeah, generally, yeah, most, I think the average vineyard holding in Duoro is about a hectare, less than a hectare, which isn't very much. Yeah, a hectare is about 2.4 acres, for those of us that don't. For us on the, not on the Imperial. For the Jeffs out there. For the Jeffs, there you go. Well, so I read a lot about Porton, obviously. I want to know about what is called the beneficio. And that's kind of how they sort of grade their grapes. And vineyard owners have vineyards that are ranked either, what is it, A through F? That's right. So producers, you're going to want those A grapes, maybe over the F, but sometimes it can cause a bit of an issue, an incentive, especially since the upswing of the dry production in the Duoro. So can you kind of just touch a little bit on that climate, how the beneficio affects production and kind of where it's going? Oh, sure. Well, I mean, it's a very important and very historic element. And so the beneficio is the right of a certain vineyard to produce a certain amount of port. And yes, all the vineyards are graded, which is based on a number of factors from the varieties that the vineyard might have to its elevation or the soils. Schist rock is a real defining feature of the region. So all of these factors come into play in determining the grade of the vineyard with A being the very top. And I'm fortunate the vineyard that I do work with is an A graded vineyard. And so the entities that sort of regulate port, IVDP, previously the Casa de Duoro, would identify the amount of port that would be produced based upon the market, based upon recent vintages. And then there would be a beneficio that would sort of be determined based upon the grade of the vineyard that those individual vineyard owners would have. So how much they can pull, what yield they can pull from that vineyard? From that vineyard to be specifically to be able to produce a port. I call any of these regulatory councils and wine, I call them lovingly, the wine police. It's the Consejo, it's INAO in France. And so how present then during harvest is the IVDP in the vineyards? Are they there, their representatives? because I mean, you have 40,000 growers, you have a relatively large wine region. It's rugged, it's hard. So what's their role in harvest and making sure the beneficio, before they decide what percentage of A or B or C can come off the vines and where are they when it actually all goes down? Well, I'd say they're very prevalent, very much involved and all of us producers and growers, they have a role to play and that's not just in the port wines, but also in the Duoro wines. So in my experience, they are very involved from the beginning, from in terms of the beneficio being determined, plus evaluating vineyards and ensuring everybody is set up properly to be able to produce or grow grapes. Then ultimately at the end as well, which they've always historically played an important role to ensure the quality of the of the port wines that are produced, and in terms of the styles of ports that are being created. Based on the availability in the market and demand supply, et cetera. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's go back to styles. We touched on it before, and you said very interestingly, kind of two basic styles, Ruby and Tawny. Is it fair to say that Ruby is simply a port that receives less aging? Wood oxidative aging, I would say. Well, I guess it sort of depends upon how the aging is done. So, yes, in terms of aging, and just to sort of also mention as well, port had historically got its name because of the city of Porto, and then also kind of a city across the river, Villanova de Gaia, because that's where historically the port wines were aged. And so the Tawny style, which gets this oxidative sort of aging because it spends a lot of time in Barrel for, you know, decades for some ports or longer, that certainly is going to be pretty characteristic of that Tawny style. And then Ruby ports, which would see much less aging in Duoro or in Porto, but you have some styles of port, like Vintage Port, for instance, in which the aging would then be done in Bottle, and in which case that could be aged in Bottle for... It requires a long time. For sure. You were saying the other week that you guys were drinking the 63s over there, and they're just now coming into fruition. Is that true? Oh, well, I mean, you know, it's an amazing experience. And I wish I could say I drink a lot of Vintage Port, but I do occasionally get an opportunity to try some Vintage Ports, and they can be one of life's great wine experiences, for sure. And it goes to show how long lived these wines can be, where something like wines from the 60s and 63 or 66 or 70 or 77. I mean, these are beginning to enter. They still have legs to stand on. Oh, they still have legs to go, but it's sort of these are the sort of the wines of the moment. So for sure, I mean, they're very long lived. And that's not to say that you can't go back and try some wines from the 20s or the 40s or even older. And they still have life to them. So it surely is a unique wine experience. It's going back in time. For sure. Do not play anything Hewie Lewis because I just said that when you edit this thing, Jeff. I will quit. Well, now I have to. When you say aging in bottle, I mean, I know what in the barrel, I understand that you get the sugars from the wood and there's the whole fluctuation of temperature and in and out of the wood, and you get a lot of those flavors. But when you're aging in a bottle, what's happening there? What happens to the wine while it sits that makes it unique or makes it worth waiting on? Oh, sure. And also that's not to say that all ports and all Ruby ports are meant for aging. The vintage port is very special. It's a type of Ruby port that is only made in maybe three or four times a decade, and it is meant to be the very best. And very little of it is produced. And to some extent, it is the most wine-like of all of the ports that are produced. It has a cork closure. And so just like many, but not all other red wine styles, it has the ability to evolve and change over time. And these vibrant dark fruits and intensity, and it just evolves into a whole range of complex aromas. And so the experience ultimately, when you open that bottle, if that's a couple of decades later or longer or sooner, is certainly unique. Well, and talking about tonny, can you talk about why they would age, then, the tonnies in Porto versus in the Duoro? I know they do both, but primarily in the Porto because of the climatic difference on the western side of the mountain range and the mayor time. Sure, oh no, sure. So the Duoro is a warm climate for sure. That's an understatement. It's hot as hell. Yeah, it certainly can't be. And I've made many a mistake trying to sample some vineyards in the midday sun, which is a mistake you make only a couple of times. So yes, it's certainly a warm climate. And sometimes that could be a bit of a challenge for aging wines because wines generally do prefer a little bit more of a cooler and also a more humid environment. And so the Duoro being kind of a warm, dry climate can be a bit of a challenge. So historically, before the advent of temperature control and these types of things, which we do now have available to us in the Duoro, they were aged in the town in Porto or in Villanova de Gaia, which was across the river. And that's a perfect environment. You're right there on the Atlantic. It's cool. It's humid. It's kind of an ideal and very gentle sort of environment to age the ports. And so that's where traditionally they had been, and they still are today, aged. Well, it's worth saying, slow, gentle aging builds complexity. Oh, for sure. Just like slow, gentle ripening of the grapes builds complexity in wine in the vineyard. For sure. No, it is a, I mean, I am, my work I do is mainly with the Duoro wines, the non-fortified wines, but I'm very passionate about the ports. And it is generations oftentimes that goes into the production of one bottle of wine, which is really remarkable in the wine world. Yeah. And there are two kind of leading families, I think, that people should be aware of when it comes to port. And I think you put this very well when you describe the Simmingtons, the Taylors and the brands that they own therein. Can you kind of talk about that relationship, sort of how it sprung up and how it affects port now? Oh, for sure. Well, yeah. And the Duoro was a very interesting region. And here I am in Chicago and, you know, and I'm fortunate to be able to make wine in Duoro. And some, they've sort of said to me, in many ways, it was one of the world's first global wine regions. I mean, this idea that the Portuguese farmers and oftentimes the shippers or who are now also the producers of ports were British. And so that's how you have these British names like Taylors and Simington and Coburns and Churchill. But others as well, they're German and Dutch. So it's this real global kind of industry. And it still is today. And certainly two of the big names in port would be Taylors and also the Simingtons. And within those families, there are multiple ports. So Simington, for instance, you know, three of their most famous would be Grams and Wares and Dows. I mean, certainly well-known. Yeah, some of the biggest brands. For sure. Yeah, for sure. And then Taylors, which also is certainly one of the most famous, well-known ports. And they also have Fonseca in their portfolio as well, among some others. These are two of the leading families in the port industry. And their impact on the industry is significant. And for sure, when they decide to declare vintages or not declare vintages, it's of a real seminal importance for everyone involved. So they're sort of leading the charge in that vintage declaration every year, more or less? Yeah, I mean, every individual port producer, I mean, they will make their own decisions. But oftentimes, I think in the marketplace, because traditionally, the ports, England was always an important market, and certainly the US is now, but it's all over the world. Well, they're determining the vintage status of five or six of the largest brands, and then down the line. No, for sure. I mean, it is a significant percentage of the port trade between these two families. And certainly, vintage declarations, yeah, that is something that everybody notices, and it can impact just overall impressions of what type of a year it is, or if it's a vintage port year, if not, or what others may do as well. Yeah, it's worth noting, not every year is a vintage year, just like in champagne. It depends. Exactly. Only, yeah, literally three, maybe four out of years out of a decade. Yeah, right. Well, we've got two then, within these two styles here, Jeff and Mike, we've got a Tawny and we have a Ruby. So I've got a Churchill LBV Late Bottled Vintage Port 2011. Let's talk about this, because when we talk about vintage ports, vintage ports are by definition a Ruby style, but they can be very expensive and they should be. They're difficult, the best grapes, hard to produce, lots of care, so often times the best wines command a high price. But you can find these LBVs as they're called, and they offer a great value and a sneak into the vintage. So when you taste this, this LBV, can you talk about the prevalence there and if you like or dislike the category and how you feel about late bottled vintage ports and what merits they hold or not? Oh, sure. I'm a big fan of LBVs. I mean, they're often on my table, particularly this time of year, and the idea of it is it is meant to be a more reserve Ruby. It is LBV, late bottled vintage, and it's also a Ruby that gives you a vintage character because it is of a specific year, you know, sort of this trend where people were wanting higher quality ports. And so for me, it's, yeah, it is often shows greater concentration and intensity and structure and just provides just a lot of impact compared to your basic non-vintage blends of Rubies. It smells like a dream. It's fantastic. You get that the deep, right, right black fruits and it's just very, very profound and aromatic. It's great. It's almost like drinking jam. It's so, it's so vibrant and the fruit, it's so concentrated. And when you say late bottle, is that late is referring to the time of year? Yeah, so it's aging in this intent to kind of make a little bit different of a style of Ruby. So this features a little bit of additional aging in barrel before its release. So it's a vintage specific, it's higher quality, and it also is aged just a little bit longer than what maybe your basic Ruby would be aged and also to kind of contribute a little bit to the quality of the wine. Yeah, so basic Ruby, two to three years late bottled, about six, right? Mike, oftentimes, yeah. You know your stuff. Sometimes, yeah. And second wine here, we have a tawny. Now this is where's 10-year-old tawny. So when we're shopping at Binny's for port, and we see grams or dows or whatnot, and we see that age statement on the bottle, it's always for a tawny. Right. But you'll see 10, 20, 30, and then every now and then you can get that unicorn 40, right? But you don't really see that. Oh, well, no, for sure. Yeah, cause with the tawny's, aged eliminated tawny, so that's your 10 years, your 20, your 30, and then rare 40. That is the average age of the wine. And so all these kind of tawny characteristics just continue to get enhanced, the older the wine gets, or maybe the fruits are a bit more prevalent in the tenure to where you're working to the 20 and 30, and then ultimately the 40. It's just a range of complex sort of characteristics, more nutty, more spice characteristics. Well, so when you say it's the average age, I think it's worth noting that some constituents in that blend are far older than 20 years. Oh, for sure. And some younger. So when you think about holding on to all those stocks for so many years, you can see why it can command a bit of a price. It's incredible. And certainly something like the 40 or 20s. I mean, the Porthouse is to have that age of port aging is just, it's a remarkable thing, right? And vibrant and good enough to drink. It doesn't spoil and go to crap. For sure. It's amazing. So it's a remarkable beverage for sure because of that. Well, Mike, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for coming in and teaching us all about port. You're really lucky to have the life that you have. It is very nice and you'd be welcome to come to see it yourself. I'm there, man. For sure. Jeff, you can come too. Oh, thanks. I'll be there. Portugal. Exactly. Portuguese version of the podcast. Yeah, right. Oh man, that would be terrible to listen to. We go off the rails very fast. Okay. Well, thanks folks. Listen, before we go, we have to do our customer Q&A. Mike, feel free to jump in here. Ladies and gents, you can win a $20 gift card to your favorite Binny's Beverage Depot location if you write us at Binny's Bev on Twitter. And what we have here is Marissa Walters. She wanted to know, Mike, when is it necessary to decant a wine? So decanting wine. And that very appropriate since we were talking about port. Can I answer, jump in here? My answer is always to impress. Just sort of the ceremony, the ritual. Yes, absolutely. The second, third date, right? And you're decanting? I think when do you decant? The third date. Right, the third date. Absolutely. I'll remember that next time. But in terms of, yeah, vintage port is an excellent example because that is also unfiltered. And so there will be some sediment that will develop in the bottle. And particularly the older the wine gets, this sediment will increase and this can apply to many other wine styles as well. So certainly decanting would be useful to remove the sediment from the wine. So you would stand the bottle upright for some period of time, for some hours perhaps, and then gently decant it into some type of a glass vessel that separates the sediment from the wine. And then certainly, also too, wine in bottle is spending a lot of time in somewhat of this reductive environment, in the absence of oxygen. So to give it the opportunity to reacquaint itself with air just benefits it in terms of opening up the aromatics and just make it much more expressive than otherwise might have been just straight from the bottle. Yep. So I always say super young tannic red wines oftentimes benefit from an hour or even two of decanting. Absolutely. Just to open it up and soften the tannins and soften the, how you perceive the structure on the palate. And then conversely, very old wines that have thrown a lot of sediment because I don't know if you guys have ever had that glass that got a bit of the drudges and it's just, oh, that stinks. You know, it's bitter, it's gross, and it's gritty. It's a weird, yeah. So in order to kind of avoid that terrible experience, we decant to make sure the wine is. Easiest way to ruin a good glass of wine. Exactly. Yep, yep. So the answer then, Marissa, is really young or really old. So Marissa is getting a $28 gift card to Binny's. Yep. And if we choose yours, you hit us at Binny's Bev on Twitter, you're going to get it. I hope you guys win. So good luck. Keep those questions coming. Thanks, Marissa, for participating. And thanks everyone for listening to Barrel to Bottle. We'll see you next time. Keep tasting.