Welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, I do communications at Binny's. I'm Jenna, I also do communications at Binny's. Jenna, we have some special guests today. Yes, we do. Joining us today, we have Geneviève Janssens. She is the Director of Wine Making at Robert Mondavi since 1997. And we also have Chrissy Whittmann, who is the Director of Wine Making at Prisoner Wine Company since 2016. Thank you for joining us today, ladies. A pleasure to come. Thanks for having us. I guess we should point out that Geneviève is the one that sounds kind of French. Yes. Yes. Yes. For sure. So I think we'll get started a little bit with your past and how you got into wine making. We'll start with Geneviève. You had your own lab and consulting firm when you first started. I'd love to touch more on that. If you just want to kind of give a little bit, maybe a quick rundown of your background for our listeners. Sure. I grew up in a family who own vineyards and wineries in Algeria and Corsica in France, Corsica and south of France. So I always saw and heard my father talking about wine and vineyards and what to do in the vineyard. I was very hooked by everything he was saying. I was always listening and passionate about his stories and his passion of making wine. He always told us, making wine or growing grapes, you won't be very rich, but your life will be very good. Absolutely, the style of the life you are going to live will be always excellent. I was listening to that and definitely I decided when it was time for me to take some studies and go to university, I decided and I will be a winemaker. So I went to Bordeaux, I got all my diploma, and then after my diploma at that time, mainly all the women who were an enologist were ending up in a lab. And so that's what I did for three years. And then I wanted to go more and understand better what's going on at the winery, in the vineyard because in the same time as an enologist, I had my diploma of pedology and beauty culture. But it was not possible for me, so I was not very happy. So I was in Bordeaux, I left and I went to Provence to open my own lab. I thought, well, with my own lab, I can decide myself about my life and what I want to do. It was a very nice environment. I was visiting wineries, talking to the owners. And at one point, my father told me, okay, if you are passionate and if you like your work, you have to visit California because it's a merging region. And if you want to know more, you should go. So I took my vacation over there. When was that? It was in 1977. And so in 1977, I visited California and Napa Valley. And of course, again, my dad giving me direction, say, you must go to Robert Mondavi Winery, because that's where you are going to learn a lot. So I went and definitely what I saw absolutely pleased me. I just took a tour, but at the end, after listening to the tour guide, the educator, I wanted to talk to the head of the winemaker. And so that was Zelma Long, and Zelma came and we talked again one full hour. And a few weeks later, she called me and she offered me a position as an enologist in the lab, and of course I took it because I was fascinated by the story of Mr. Mondavi. And what Mr. Mondavi did in 1966 and before 1966, he visited Europe, he visited all the wine country, because his idea was to make wine which will belong to the best wines of the world. So he went to Burgundy, he went to Loire Valley, he went to Bordeaux, and then in Germany. And then he came back, and when he built his winery, he brought under one roof, one winery, all the new technology then it took from those different region. Where were the vineyards located? Valley floor, hills? That was around Toccanon. It was in 1966, Mr. Mondavi built his winery and took Toccanon vineyards as his best vineyard to make the best wine. He knew then if you want to do a good, an excellent wine, you need an excellent terroir and that's Toccanon. So what I'm talking is that was mainly Toccanon. So the winery is surrounded by Toccanon. At the time where Mr. Mondavi built his winery, he had 550 acres. Now we have 450 acres, which is 100 went to Opus One a long time ago. In 1966, the wine was very simple. People were not expecting California to be the high-end wines. And that's the dedication of Mr. Mondavi, who wanted to prove to the world that California, Napa Valley, and his wines and his vineyards, Toccanon, belonged to the best wines in the world. So that's how I started my career at Robert Mondavi Winery. It's in 1978 with Gérard Malanque. And I want to say that at that time in France, the women were very rare being with a diploma of Enology, like 10%, 15%, that's it. And then they were always ending up in a lab. But Robert Mondavi Winery offered me the possibility to extend my knowledge and my passion going in the vineyard and tasting wines and be at the winery. So that's the profile of my career at Robert Mondavi Winery. I think it's important to note also for our listeners who may not be aware, Napa Valley was not always as influential as it is today. And that really began in the 60s and 70s when Mondavi was starting. And he's truly considered one of the founding fathers of Napa and California wine. So people who may only be familiar with perhaps is like Woodbridge labels may not be aware that he has not only some beautifully high end wines, but also that he kind of is responsible for a lot of what we know for Napa Valley today, which is, it was Is this a good time to pour the first wine? Yeah, let's do it. I'm going to kind of want to try some wine. Yeah, well, let's start with the Cabernet Sauvignon Napa Valley 2019. That's Robert Mondavi Winery, Cabernet Sauvignon Napa Valley 2019. The Napa Valley, let's talk about Napa Valley tiers, because it can be a Cabernet Sauvignon or a Chardonnay or a Pinot or a Merlot. This is an expression of the Napa Valley without focusing on one vineyard, and focusing on a region. We always harvest in early in the morning, and the Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon is a blend of Merlot Malbec, Petit Verdeau, Cabernet Franc, and Cabernet Sauvignon. So you will get a lot of suppleness and pluminess, and ideally, it's a wine which everybody can enjoy, and the wine who is going to tell you to come back and drink again. I like to say that this is type of wine and when the bottle is empty very quickly is a good sign, and this one, I saw many people emptying the bottle in a matter of few minutes. So I think it's a good sign of quiet and friendly wine. All our wines, the style of our wines are always fresh and plush, and tannin are very refined and finesse and with some elegance, and always the harmony of all those varieties are there in the wine. To me, it's very plummy and the aromatics are very expressive with a very good touch of oak, so you have that nuttiness, and it's very lush and bright acidity, and you have layers of sweet fruit. And so everything is in one glass to please the customers or to please a tester. Very easy to pair with any type of food. So I hope you like it the way I liked and enjoy making it. It's delicious. It's funny, you said the word refined. That's exactly how I would describe it. Sleek, right? Yeah. The tannins are very silky, but balanced beautifully with the acid. Great wine. There's this weird balance between the nose and the palate itself. The nose seems like loamy and a little dusty and definitely perfumey. I don't get that much fruit, but then on the palate, it's all raspberry, this tight raspberry. I mean, I don't like to talk about aging that much, but this seems like it has some potential for aging too. It's very friendly, but I like. It's very engaging and I think it's very important. Then when a consumer is going to test the wine, it's going to be framed with the wine right away. What is very important is the personality of the wine and when the person is going to finish the glass, he is going to remember the wine and come back. That's what we are trying to achieve here. Yes, definitely. I agree. For any of our listeners interested, you can find this at most, if not all, Binny's locations for around the $50 price point. Well worth it in my opinion. Definitely a very good, great table wine, especially dinner party wine. So Geneviève, it sounds like you have this globe-trotting past. Chrissy, by contrast, there's a lot of similarities in your backstory, but you didn't go very far. You're a California native? Yeah, so I'm a California native, born and raised in Southern California, in beautiful downtown Burbank. Beautiful downtown Burbank. A new car! Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, it was all about, you know, aging myself a bit, but, you know, Johnny Carson, Jay Leno, The Price is Right, you know, all that, all that good stuff. Yeah, so like I grew up in a pretty, my parents were, you know, did not consume a lot of alcohol, which is not what my kids are going to say about me. But my mom, I don't think I ever saw her take a sip of anything. And my dad was born and raised in Mexico, and then came over when he was like 13. And he was margaritas and some, I think it was called Tyrolean wine. It was like a jug wine. I bet the margaritas glowed in the dark at the time. Right, yeah. You know, that's, that's what I, I grew up with. There was never any beer in the house and rarely any other wine in the, I remember like my grandmother, or, oh, I have a glass of Chablis, you know, it was very much, or a glass of Blush, you know, it was. The Carlo Rossi kind. Yeah. And so, you know, when I went to school, when I went to school, I hadn't even, you know, tried alcohol at all. So I actually entered as a PE major, wanting to do like kinesiology or physical therapy. And then I became inenamored with the program. And so I changed my major to, at the time, what was called ecology and systematic biology, which basically is environmental science. And was looking to work on environmental impact reports, endangered species stuff, you know, that environmental law. And when I graduated, I didn't want to go back to Burbank. So I went to school at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, which is halfway between LA and San Francisco. So eventually my parents moved up from Burbank to where I was. And I just started sending out resumes, because that's, you know, what we did at that time. I eventually got hired on by an environmental lab that analyzed soil and wastewater. It's very lovely, lovely job working with those samples. While working in that lab, it was in Edna Valley, which is a viticultural area in San Luis Obispo County. The lab had a little wine lab in it. And so there was one guy that would analyze people's wines, grapes, juice, and so on. That guy went on vacation and they asked me to fill in for him and do some wine analysis. And I'm like, oh, OK, yeah, I knew nothing about it. I mean, to me, at that at that point, I had had Boone's Farm and Corbett Canyon White Zin. And what got me hooked on that was the bottle, right? You know, it's just awesome. I'm like, OK, yeah, I'll do this analysis. Didn't know what anything meant. I feel so sorry for those customers that got these results that I don't know if that they were correct or not. Shortly thereafter, I went to another environmental lab and analyzing petroleum products in soil and water. And then I saw an ad for like a wine chemist lab tech. At a place called Meridian Vineyard. Lab tech, analyzing wine. I've done that. So I applied. I mean, little did I know that once I stepped into that job, that it was going to change the rest of my life. You know, because I had to, I moved out of my parents' house. And like within six, seven months, I met my husband. And my career was changed forever. So not because of my husband, but because of the job I took. I had some really good mentors there. And the head wine maker was a woman. And, you know, it's one of those things, like people ask me all the time, Oh, you know, do you feel like you've been affected in a male dominated industry? And I've always, I've always thought I've gotten where I have because of the work that I put in, haven't really felt or maybe have just been oblivious to any sort of unconscious bias or whatever, you know? So I just, I just look at the mentors that I have, two women, and just the encouragement that they gave me, you know, and kind of like, well, you know, you should go back to school. And I'm like, okay, so I did the best I could with that because we weren't moving. I didn't have an opportunity to go to UC Davis. So I went back to Cal Poly and kind of made my own program, what they had there. And, and then I just kind of kept going. I spent a few years at Meridian. I got myself into an enologist position and then took a lab manager job at my next place of employment, which is funny because one of the mentors always told me, don't get pitched and hold in the lab. You know, and so when Geneviève was talking about the lab, I'm like, oh yeah, that was, I remember that clear as day. But I wanted, you know, I wanted to move up and it was like my first opportunity, you know, to manage people. And, and that was a great, a great job and stayed there for a few years. And then went on to, that's actually where I got my first winemaking experience. It was custom crush. So you're helping other people, clients make wine. So you kind of see other people's approach to winemaking and what, you know, take and take what you want from that. Are those professionals or those like hobbyists? These are professionals. Yeah, like actually at that place, our number one customer was Robert Mondavi Coastal at the time, which is now Robert Mondavi Private Selection. Interesting. Yeah. And also Sterling and BV Coastal. So, you know, there's several people that I work with now that were with those programs when I was at that place at that time. So it's kind of funny. So I ended up moving on from there to another Crestrop Crush place where I became kind of more committed to the winemaking path as an assistant winemaker. That place was 60 miles from where I lived. But when I had my first child, then I really needed to find something that was closer to home. So I saw an ad for Wild Horse Winery in Templeton. And it was a step back. And I took a pay cut, but I needed to do it for my family. And I remember I got hired in July of 2007. And in like January of 2008, the company sold The Constellation. So I was like, oh wow, this is cool. I was there for nine years and worked my way up to general manager and director of winemaking. And then I got a phone call one day for the prisoner, you know, interviewed and got offered the position. And then we moved the family up to Napa Valley, which I never ever thought I would work in Napa Valley. Never. I always thought, you know, you have your thoughts about it, right? I can't think, your stereotypes and all that. Yeah, preconceptions, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always thought I was kind of more the Sonoma casual type. And little did I know how well we would end up fitting in Napa Valley and with this brand, you know? And so I tell people it's the best wine making job I've ever had because I've learned far more in the past five years than I learned in the previous 15, just because the wines are just different, you know? And I think this is a great, you know, talking, you know, with what Geneviève is just a great juxtaposition of the two wine styles and history. Yeah, it's just a really interesting, you know, and it's not even a comparison. It's just this is what our wines are, you know? And this is how they differ. Before we get too involved in the wine, I do want to just commend both of you for such interesting careers. And then for both of you, in a way, you just, you went out for what you wanted. You just, I'm just going to go for it. And didn't wait, didn't ask for permission or wait for someone to help along, which is very commendable and very admirable. So thank you for sharing your stories with us. Yeah, you know, that was probably about a year ago. I had another conversation with somebody that is kind of a mentor. And they just told me, you know, in a very succinct way, just go for it and ask for what you want. And sometimes it's just hard to think of it that simply, like you get lost in how, you know, how am I going to do that, you know? And sometimes it takes a while for things like that to click. Yeah, definitely. Awesome. That's a good beat. You want to try the next one? Yeah, definitely. Let's start with the Unshackle 2019. 2019? It looks like an Enigma machine on it or some kind of bicycle padlock. It reminds me of a Christmas story when he's waiting for his decoder. It's also the drink more rich chocolatey ovaltine. Unshackled is a more entry-level price point, but sharing a lot of the similar Prisoner Wine Company classic characteristics of approachability and softness. Because of the sourcing of this is a lot of Central Coast, you get a lot of red fruit, fresh fruit. And we kind of look at it as fun and fresh with a side of serious, whereas the Prisoner Red Blend is dark and serious. And if you put them side by side, you can kind of see what I mean by that. Yeah, it just allows more people. It's available in all of the stores, give people access to wines from the Prisoner Wine Company. Yeah, for reference, most people are familiar with Prisoner, and that lands around $40 or so on our shelves, and this one's $25.99, so definitely more of an entry level, but it's so bright. It's so more modern, fresh and approachable. Yeah, much more approachable and really easy to drink. Like pomegranate, cocoa, even some orange on the palate. Actually, there's not a lot of tannin, though. Not a lot of friends. Easy. Yeah, definitely wouldn't need food with it. Drink sooner rather than later. I also call it wine for the impatient. Good social wine. So buy, drink. Definitely. Finish a couple of bottles with friends. So it's interesting that you guys both have such an important part of your background in science. I mean, it seems like that would definitely inform winemaking. A lot of times we paint this romantic picture of wine. In the sales, you know, on our side, it's really easy to paint this romantic picture of wine where it's just like farming and art. But there's just a tremendous amount of chemistry and analysis that goes into it too. Do you guys think that that prepared you more? Yeah, I think it's technology more than chemistry, yes, but technology for sure. Okay. I think too, like, my very first wine job was very formulaic, I think. You know, looking to hit certain TAs and RSs and a lot of analysis was done. So we made decisions on a lot of analysis and I had to learn almost the art side, the creative side, you know, and really trusting your palate and your senses. And then using the analysis as a backup, you know, so it's been an evolution. Genevieve, did you ever have to give your dad bad news for wine that he was making after doing analysis on it? No, no, never, because the wine he was making was not the wine that you have in mind. It was not for consumers. It was by negotiation to be blended. So it was very, very important for the winemaking to have an envy in the vineyard, to have a very strong body, a little bit like the Central Valley, very strong, strong color body and intense. So that was not a wine that you could drink every day, but a wine that negotiation we are buying to blend as a big blenders. So totally different, totally different economy. I was imagining this Bocolic little farm, but it doesn't sound like that's what was the case. But I wanted to add something about the lab, and at Robert Mondavi Winery, all the winemakers and my part, I was involved to, started in the lab, and that's where you learn the most because you see all the different aspect of winemaking. You always do analysis, TA, PH, sugar, all of that. But then you follow the winemaker decision. The winemaker very rarely goes to the lab, but you have the lab technician observing and talking. So when you are passionate about winemaking, the lab technicians always, always try to be part of the testing, and we always allow the lab technicians to take some time and test with the winemakers. So the natural evolution at Robert Mondavi Winery for lab technicians is to be an enologist and then from the enologist, a winemaker. So that's how many other winemakers have finished their career at Robert Mondavi Winery, starting in the lab, finishing as a winemaker. So I think the lab is a very good school for the winemakers, but if you are stuck in the lab like I was in France, it was not a good school. Well, should we move on to the Mondavi Reserve while we continue? Can we? Should we? Yeah. Yeah, sounds good. The Cabaret Sauvignon Reserve 2016. So the definition of the reserve for Mr. Mondavi was the best of the best of what he had at the winery, based on vineyards. So growing, having great vineyard can make great wine, and that was the reserve. So that was always for him very important. Then we selected vineyard of outstanding terroir. So the 2016 is 100% Tocano, and we have 92% Cabaret Sauvignon, 6% Cabaret Franc, and 2% Petit Verdeau. So for the Cabaret Sauvignon Reserve, opposite of our Cabaret Sauvignon from Augeville or Cabaret Sauvignon Napa Valley, which are both Bordeaux red varieties. So we have the five varieties. In Cabaret Sauvignon Reserve, we have just three varieties, Cabaret Sauvignon, Cabaret Franc, Petit Verdeau. And we pick very diligently. The winemakers are walking the vineyard early in the morning. We sort the fruit, very important, and we ferment in oak tanks. And then fermentation is very classic Bordeaux, so pump over. We test every day all the lards, and we decide if we do more pump over per day or less pump over. And then closure of the tank, and we call that maceration. And then when we don't touch the wines anymore, we close the gate, the top of the tank, and the tank is full of CO2. We test the wine every single day, and we see the evolution of the tannin in the tank. So, when we think the tannin have arrived to a very nice balance in the mouthfeel, and for those types of terroir, usually it's 35 days to 40 days of skin contact, we drain and press, and we go directly into barrels, and the malolactic is done in two barrels. So, again, we test and test, and always test, which is important. And 18 months later, when malolactic is finished, we bubble the wine. So we have a time where we are blending during the season, and then we are, when time is to bottle, it's 18 months after harvest. The profile of Tocano vineyard, and we saw that through, and we are seeing that through many other winemakers making the Tocano, using the fruit from Tocano, the silkiness of the tannin, the freshness of the mouthfeel, and you have the blueberry and the wild berry, the fruit is very dark, and the tannin can be very strong, and can be evolved very nicely through the years. So it's a wine that you can really let it sit for 30 years and 40 years with no problem. I actually have a bottle laying down right now in my wine cabinet of this that I've been waiting. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. And that's why I think when you buy a Cabernet Sauvignon Reserve, you should never buy just one bottle, but four or six. That's only one, Jenna. Well, now I got to try it, so you don't cheat it. Every 10 years, every five years. Yes, absolutely. Because it's fun to see a wine evolving and positively, but such a different personality while aging. A little bit like a person, when you have the person, a baby, it's cute, it's nice. But then when the kid is 10 years old, it's different. And then when we are 70 years old, this is really interesting too. So that's my recommendation is never buy one bottle. Always when we build the blend, we always have an entry, a strong middle, and very lengthy. So that's very important. The balance, the finesse, the elegance, personality of Tocano is there, and then harmony. So all those words is Robert Mondavi style. And in the reserve, what is different is the power, and the power is coming from Tocano. The beauty of Tocano is the Mayacanas Mountain, and then the winery is located in Oakville, in the center of the Napa Valley, and on the west side of the Napa Valley. Very strong influence of the ocean. You have the fog coming in the evening, in the summertime, and going slowly out of the valley, around eight o'clock, nine o'clock, and then you have a big sun. So all of those elements, and the complexity of the geology of the soil. We had the Mayacamas Mountain being eroded for millions of years. And we have at the bottom of the Mayacamas Mountain, you have a lot of sediments which are rocky, and then slowly you have the sandy soil in the middle, and then you have the clay at the very close to the Highway 29, or closer to the river, Napa River. So all our food to get that strong tannin is very well drained soil with rocky soil. So that's mainly how I see how we define the soil for the reserve. There's a lot of strength. So yeah, it's a very good wine, very delicious. Strength is a good word to describe it. This wine is a Bugatti or a Maserati. It's like this powerful souped up car that's also beautiful and polished at the same time. Classic. Yes, it has much more tannic structure than the Napa, which I enjoy. Definitely a food wine, but beautifully done. Very excellent wine. Yeah, very artistic. One of you touched on earlier, I believe it was Chrissy, how the Prisoner wine company wines are much newer, a little more experimental, this much more new world style. These Mondavis are just so classic in their old world style. Like you were mentioning Geneviève in this classic Bordeaux characteristic to these wines and beautifully done. Yeah. I don't want to insult you, but I like it more than Bordeaux because there's a little bit less of the autumnal leaf kind of quality and a little more like baking spice and game meat spice and chocolate. Maybe it's wood or maybe it's the ripeness of the grapes. I don't know, but I like this a lot. You have a fresh herb always, all the toccano. It can be sage and I think this time maybe it's sage, but it can be something else and that's a freshness which push all those aromatics out of the glass. Yeah, right. It's everything I like about Bordeaux but much more approachable to your average consumer and wine drinking in general. It's a little more approachable than a Bordeaux for the same vintage. You may not even be able to open that right now, whereas this you can have it right now or you can age it if you wanted to. All right, should we then try The Prisoner? Chrissy, you ready? Because, I mean, you've got a pretty unsurmountable wine here to overcome with The Prisoner. I get plum in the nose. I mean, right away, I get hit with vanilla. It's much more of a silky finish, too, than compared to the Unchackled. Do you get maple syrup in the nose? Yes, yeah, a little bit. The plum is way across the palate. There's a little bit of citric lift, but for the most part, it's this really rich, fruity, ripe fruit. Yeah, it's a big fruit bomb. It's definitely an easy sipper, though. Goes right down. The Prisoner Red Blend really is paying a tribute to, especially, pre-prohibition Napa Valley, as many of the varieties that were present in that time frame were Zinfandel, Syrah, Charbonneau, other Italian varieties. That's really what comprises the Prisoner Red Blend, is soft and jammy components of Zin, Syrah, and Petite Syrah, and then balanced out by the more of, you know, the acidity and tannin structure on the back end from Cabernet, Sauvignon, and Merlot. So we actually work with a ton of growers up and down Napa Valley, all the way from Carneros on up to Calistoga. I was actually going to touch on that in a minute. You guys have over a hundred different vineyards you source grapes from? Oh, yeah. How does that work? How do you even begin? And how many of them have Charbonneau? Not many. We may, we have one regular vineyard and in any given year, we may have up to three. It just depends on kind of what those growers have available at that time. And so, I mean, we have vineyard lots, you know, from two tons up. And we really try to manage them all, you know, as separately as we can, because every one of those makes contribution to the blend. And I want to say that was a bunch of crap, you know, many years ago, about these half of a percents of what the blend is. And now, you know, I, you know, I'm living. And now you're gonna, yeah. So some of the growers that we have, you know, fourth and fifth, you know, generation family that, you know, especially the one Charbonneau Vineyard that we have, his dad was not doing well health-wise and was basically telling him that, you know, when he passes on to pull the vineyard out and plant cab because, you know, Cabernet commands a much higher price point and has, you know, some less vineyard inputs than like Zinfandel and Petite Syrah. And so, but when his dad passed on, he said he just couldn't do it. And so it's still planted today, you know, and I think that had to be like, all right, 20 years ago or so. So it's, you know, it's, it's an interesting relationship that we have with our growers. You know, it's like their livelihood is our livelihood and our livelihood is their livelihood. You know, and we share a similar passion for the varieties that are being grown. And, you know, it's always like, oh, how did my Petit Seurat do this year? I was trying so hard, you know, you know, to get it to a certain quality that that he felt. And this is one of our growers, Bruno Solari up in Calistoga. And this year, he's going to be so proud, because we're going to have basically a Vineyard designated Solari Petit Seurat. The interesting thing too is that, you know, the Prisoner Red Blend has made the prisoner name what it is. And it's all, that's what we do, is we, everything is a blend. There's, it's pretty rare that you'll see something that's 100% varietal. And, but at the same point, like with Prisoner Pinot, you know, that's a variety that it's really easy to kind of bulldoze the characteristics with another variety. Yeah. So we kind of have to ride that line of, you know, what enhances the Pinot, not what covers it up, you know. It's like what, you know, what's pushing up the quality of the wine, you know, with, you know, two or three different varieties, you know. You know, it's almost kind of like a team. You have different, different people's inputs and thoughts, and you enhance the ideas that that come out of, you know, what you're working on. So which I would imagine would be kind of a fun challenge as a wine maker, because Pinot is so, so delicate that... Yeah. And like the red blend is the hardest blend to make, because one of the things, you know, that we look for is consistency from vintage to vintage. And, you know, each year Mother Nature, you know, gives you challenges. And yes, we do have these certain varieties in similar proportions, you know, on an annual basis, but they're never the same, because you have to provide the same style year to year and be consistent. So that's what we, that's our goal. Do you think that's more of a challenge than doing something like the Mondavi Cabernet Reserve, which isn't an expression of the same place, but it can be different from vintage to vintage? Yeah. I don't know how to really answer that. Like, I think it's, there's a little bit of safety in numbers with the amount of vineyards that we have. And so when I look at, if we were getting from one vineyard and something catastrophic was to happen, then it's like, there's just, I think there's more risk involved. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You have a lot more plan Bs. You have a lot more fallbacks when you're working with that many. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Roger, our beer guy always talks about how Bud Light is probably the hardest beer to make, because they have to make it, millions of people drink it and it's not a very complex beer, but millions of people will identify immediately if they didn't get Oh yeah. Not that your wine is Bud Light, but you know. No, but I mean, seriously, I mean, but that's the thing, right? That's why we have to- You're creating a staple in someone's home in their life. That's something that they're going to turn to because they know what they can expect. How's this for a metaphor? They have the same Lego construction every year, but you get a random assortment of a couple of hundred Lego blocks that is different every year and you still have to make the same thing. Yeah. I don't know why I'm thinking about Lego. Yeah. So I do want to ask, this question is for both of you, but I think maybe we'll start with Geneviève going back to the Mondavi. What goes into making a wine, especially the Mondavi's, these are both cabs. One is in the $50 price point, one is in the $135 price point. What makes that different? What goes into making those two wines to get them in those two different characteristic styles that would lead to different price points like that? For consumers that may not be as familiar with why, but we get that question a lot on the sales floor, which is why I ask. Sure. It's definitely the soil. And we select the reserve always first, and we select the best for the reserve. And then everything which has not taken the cut to be a reserve will go to our Augeville Cavalier Sauvignon. Usually, it's very predictable. We know where the reserve block comes every year. It's very rare. It does happen, but it's very rare that we have a failure in those reserve blocks. And then the Augeville Cavalier Sauvignon variety. And first of all, you have Merlot, Malbec, Petit Verdeau, and Cavalier Franc, and Cavalier Sauvignon. But you have it in the center of Toccanon on the sandy soil, more on the sandy soil than on a rocky soil. So right there, you have the vineyard and the vines, which will react to that texture of the soil, and will bring something different to in the tank and to the wine. So it's a matter of, for the old vils, this is a matter of the blocks, which are not making the cut of reserve, and then making great wine. Awesome. And Chrissy, is it the same answer, or is it any different for you guys at the Prisoner Company? With Unshackled and Prisoner, so we have two red blends, and we touched a little bit earlier on how Unshackled is the more affordable entry level version of Prisoner, more or less. And just what goes into the different, I guess, the process, how does the process differ making $25 versus a $40, $50 wine? Our process is very deliberate, and it first starts with the sourcing. So Unshackled has a heavy Central Coast source component to it, whereas the Prisoner is heavily Napa Valley sourced. So just by virtue of those two differences, they have different intensities to them, both in mouthfeel and aromatics. And also, you know, we have made changes. One of the things we didn't want it to be or to have people call it is Baby Prisoner, because that's not what it is. There's different varieties in it. And while some of those varieties are present in both wines, they are not the same blends. So very different styles. Yeah, we have included Grenache, Tannat, there's still Zin, Syrah, Petite Syrah, but very low on the Bordeaux component. There is some Malbec in there, so it's definitely pushing towards the red fruit, but still has the vanilla, the caramel characteristics. Prisoner is much more dark. A lot darker. Zin, Syrah, Petite, Syrah. Yeah, and so, you know, it was very, you know, like I said, it was very deliberate decisions to make sure that these were separate wines and driven by sourcing and variety choice. Awesome. Thank you. Very interesting. So for both of you guys, Geneviève, with your history of winemaking over the decades, and Chrissy with your science background also, I think one of the bigger issues affecting the world and also wine growing is climate change and global warming. How is that impacting the way that you approach wine and how do you think it's changing the world of wine? I think what we are seeing here is an impact on the temperature, definitely, changes in climate suddenly, on drought, definitely. So I will say then that when the changes in climate is in Napa Valley, it's never as dramatic as in Bordeaux or in France. I think we are luckier in Napa Valley for that because we see the big changes, but it is not big swings which will make the vineyard totally awful. There is always in people a positive and always a hope that just right now, the vineyard team is adapting more and more the vineyard to these changes, and these swings in temperature sometimes. So we see more canopy management changing. Instead of vertical trading system, we have more the canes going down to protect the fruit. So we do have tools to adapt to the changes. And I do think we have a better weather than somewhere else, except when everything is burning and then when there's no water. Yeah. So with the style of wine that we make, we let the grapes hang out a bit longer, a bit longer so that it becomes a bit uncomfortable for both the grower and the winemaker. A little risky, a little bit of a nice. And it's a style choice, and that's how we get some of the little bit of the porty characteristics, and the chocolate, and the elevated alcohol. So it all lends itself to the softness of the blend. And so especially this past harvest, where many people's reservoirs were dry, we really wanted to keep an eye out for the growers, and be sure to try to be ahead. If, you know, we were going to have a heat spike, or something weather related was going to happen. You know, and I say we try, because we do try, but then it's a matter of can you get people to pick? Can you do, you know, and there's other logistics behind it. But I think as a winemaking team here, we understand what the style of the wine is. But I think, you know, the need to push the grapes, you know, is kind of waning a little bit. As we, you know, we're kind of all in this, you know, industry. And, you know, want to be sure that we're cognizant of what's happening with others, you know? It sounds like it's less of a risk in that that ripening is happening sooner. Is that more or less? Well, the problem is, is that everything ripens at the same time. You know, you used to have like a nice, okay, Pina Noir would come in, and then Chardonnay, and Seurat, and Merlot, and then you'd finish the season with Cab, you know? Yeah, staggered, Parvis. Like last year, we had Cab coming in in September, and, you know, I mean, it was just, it's kind of all over the place, and we just have to adapt. But I think the, you know, a huge focus for us is making sure that we're keeping the growers in mind, and the grapes and the vines, you know, as they, you know, look to produce in future years. Well, I just have one more question to kind of wrap up for both of you. I think, again, maybe start with Geneviève, but do you have any advice for aspiring wine pros, or winemakers, or women in the industry looking to kind of come up? Any words of advice that you could give them? I think it can be a male or a female. I don't see any difference personally. Because I think the wine industry is accepting more and more female, and that's a very good trend. But I will say hard work, dedication, passion, sharing a lot with everybody is very important to share. And then liking, loving people and teamwork. Great. Thank you. And Chrissy? I think I alluded to it a little bit before, is go for and ask for what you want, but don't be overly confident. Be humble. And like Geneviève said, work hard and ask for help when you need it. And ask a lot of questions. Ask questions of leaders as a budding winemaker or person in an industry, how they got where they are. I think part of how I got where I am is because I asked those questions and showed the interest. You know, but back it up. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was very informative and very enlightening. Appreciate it. Appreciate your time. Thank you for giving us an excuse to open these wines. Yes. Beautiful wines. Thank you. It's a good way to spend an afternoon. Thank you for having us. And thank you for YouTube. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for your support. Appreciate it. For sure. And thanks to our listeners. If you enjoyed listening to this, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. And I guess that's about it. I don't even think that Spotify has reviews or Amazon, whatever. Thanks for listening to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Until next time, I'm Greg. I'm Jenna. I'm Chrissy.