Hello, and welcome back to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Pat from the Specialty Spirits Department. Got a couple Monday to Friday friends in the room with me here today. I'm Roger, I do beer for Binny's. I'm Jenna, I do communications for Binny's. And we also have some special guests here, all the way from down under. We have Cam and Stu from Four Pillars Gin. Welcome, guys. Oh, thanks for having us. Well, it's so good to be here. Cam and Stu, Cameron, Stuie, what are we going by? Cam, Stu? Yeah, Cam and Stu. Okay. I'll go by anything. I've been called a lot worse than Stuie. Trust me. You guys are the founders of Four Pillars Gin, is that correct? Yeah. Okay, Four Pillars Gin. Australian Gin, we've been selling it. Marketing suit in the corner, what, about eight months now or something? Yeah, thumbs up for the month. Thumbs up. Thumbs up from the suit. All right, good job. So we're gonna talk about gin today, Australian gin, what you guys are doing different. You want to give us a little rundown how this thing got rolling. Why don't we start where all great stories start making gin and that's Spokane, Washington. Oh, okay. And that's strangely enough where we started our journey. Cameron and I have had 20 odd years in the wine industry. I'm Stu by the way. I'm the one with the more sonorous voice. I think I'm gonna be the more appealing podcast guest. I'm not gonna lie. That's probably our first use of the word sonorous on the podcast in like five years. And Cameron will be the more informative, but I'll be the more colorful. Let's just go with that. We both made a lot of noise in the wine industry. We're not a lot of noise, a bit of wine and a bit of noise. You don't just talk quiet at some really supposed to hear that. I can't believe, isn't it? For near enough 20 years. Fun fact, fun fact number one, right? We're gonna count the fun facts. Jenny, you're gonna count the fun facts number one. Cameron McKenzie, Cam, ran in the 1996 Olympic Games, right, for Australia. In the four by 400 meter relay, he got absolutely flogged by a bloke called Michael Johnson. No one probably has heard of him. Yeah, I remember Michael Johnson. He says he was on the same track as him, but just not at the same time. Right, and Cameron was a little kiddie with a few little issues. I think he had a couple of week Achilles heel or something like that. He was working for a winery in the Yarra Valley, and I was working in the head office, obviously, because I was a, what do you call it? You call it a higher up here, don't you? You're the guy behind the guy. Yeah, I was a bit of a higher up. He was a marketing suit. Okay. Now the truth comes out. That's what he was. I was a guy in the corner. He came to work with me. We had a great 20 years working together in wine, or 15 odd years working in wine. Then Cameron had this great idea. He said, you know what? We're not making much great wine here, let's be honest. Wine is too hard. In Australia, there's 2,500 wineries. Believe it or not, climate change is having a little bit of an impact on when you can harvest. Oh, really? We haven't heard about that yet. What I don't want to do is be controversial here. I've been told, stay off controversial topics in the US, Stuart, and I've brought up climate change already. Anyway. That's only a controversial topic here. It's a bit of a real thing in Australia. Anyway. He said, why don't we make gin? Because we drank a lot of gin. And I suppose it was 2012. We started really seriously thinking about making this gin. And it was 2013. We got a partner in. So frankly, two idiots and we needed someone smart. So the guy, the smart guy, Matt Jones, back in the office now, running the business effectively while we're going to the Kentucky Derby. The guy behind the guy. While we're going to the Kentucky Derby on Saturday. It's pretty easy. I make gin, Stu makes noise, Matt makes sense. And that's how the business runs. That's all you need. That's all you need. Yeah. And then we thought we'd make some gin. We want to make gin that's not London dry gin because the concept of making London dry gin in Healesville, in the Yarra Valley in Melbourne is just ridiculous. If you want London dry gin, how about this as an idea? Go to f***ing London and that would be a good place to start with your London dry gin. Sorry, that's my first swear word and I've had a look over my shoulder already. But make modern Australian gin. So Cam will talk a bit more about the gins in depth, but the concept was always to make gins that were unique, that were true to gin. Like there's a lot of juniper in our gin. So one of the things that we don't like are gins without juniper. But to get back to Spokane, Washington, we bought a still from Christian Kahl, the best stills, just outside of Stuttgart in Germany. We think there's two or three great still manufacturers in the world. If you're gonna make beautiful aromatic spirits, Kahl was the best. We found a distillery called Dryfly, which you may or may not have heard of, which is up in Spokane, home of Gonzaga, the famous basketball college. We ended up spending a week up there learning how to use this particular piece of kit, and then we drove, but we flew from Spokane to Portland, and then we drove from Portland to LA and went and visited every single craft distillery on the West Coast. That's a 14-day trip. I drove the whole way, believe it or not. And this is about when? 2013. Started in 2013. Okay, yeah, so that's when we started. Lot of gin distilleries in Oregon at the time, actually. There were a lot in Oregon, so we went to visit three or four in Portland. We went down, the guys at Sebastopol were just setting up at Spirit Works. We went to St. George, where they also had a Carl Stills, so we got to know those guys and see what they were doing with the beautiful gins. Yeah, they were one of the first. Yeah, and we had such a great time. We knew we were on the track with the right stills. Then we knew also, and St. George helped us with this, about what do you have local that you can use from a botanical to differentiate your, you know, the terroir gin, the botanivore gin. You know, those gins from St. George really inspired us to do some stuff more native to our local area. And then Cameron's genius around distilling. And also, I think all of his experience in wine, because when we started, there were 12 odd, maybe 15 distilleries in Australia making gin, oh, four or five making gin, but probably 20 or 30 mainly Tasmanian whiskeys, that sort of stuff, right? Yeah. There's now 250 distilleries in Australia. Holy cow. More distilleries in Australia than we do in, than they do in Scotland now. Yeah. And when we started, we wanted to make sure that we made something uniquely Australian, something that was distinctive, but always had to start from a place, was is it going to be the world's best? Like, is it going to be properly competitive? Uniquely Australian. Uniquely Australian, but also brilliant. Just hang kangaroo meat in the still, like a special mezcal. Yeah. Just being uniquely Australian was never going to be enough to be globally relevant. It was just going to be a bit of a f***ing, like a kangaroo or a crocodile, right? It was just going to be a bit of a gimmick, and then we were going to go away. But so these gins, this lineup of gins that we got here, that we got obviously that we're selling Binny's, are as good as any in the category, right? We humbly believe. You've touched on a few key points there. North America was really important to us when we started Four Pillars. We didn't go to London to learn how to make gin. We actually came over to the US because the craft distilling scene was really getting momentum. But that confidence around making really contemporary style gins. Yeah, I mean, it's the home of that more contemporary modern style of gin for sure. No doubt. That gave us the confidence to come home and say, well, sure, let's be true to style. Let's make gin and let's use some traditional botanicals, but let's use some of those really interesting native botanicals. They used more to anchor the gin to Australia rather than be the sole purpose of the gin. That first gin that we're going to taste, we're lucky. We get fresh citrus 12 months of the year. We grow oranges 12 months of the year. Thanks, climate change. Let's taste it, shall we taste it? Yeah. How long have we got on this thing? I've put in two and a half hours for this podcast. Is that what we're normally going with, about 150 minutes? We've done that before. Or less, yeah. We tend to lose listeners in the second half, not gonna lie. Basing this on the Joe Rogan experience, is that what I should be basing it on? I'm going two to two and a half hours. That will be the last time we get compared to Joe Rogan. Yeah. That's the second controversial thing you've said. Yeah, it's not gonna be the last. So if we were in Europe or the UK though, we would have to use dried peel. You just couldn't get unwaxed organic citrus. We get organic oranges 12 months of the year. So the oranges go in a vapor basket. The other botanicals go into the bottle. And it's not dried peel? No, we just cut them in half, stack them up in a basket, and we basically steam them in gin. You're bringing in whole oranges and paying some porshmuck to cut them all in half. To make enough gin that gets exported globally. Don't pretend that porshmuck's you, mate. You haven't cut an orange in half since 2014. That's me three days a week, I love oranges, man. And then there's these native botanicals, and I brought some in for you guys to have a look at, so pass those down. Roger is a tea and botanical enthusiast, so this is great for him. So lemon myrtle, which is that leaf there, that's the highest natural form of citral in the world. Six times higher in that citrusy character than a lemon. That's awesome. Used a lot in teas, but really aromatic, really beautiful. Wow, it smells like a lemon head candy, like that concentrated, sweet lemon. Like those icy poles, you have icy poles, like really intense lemon ice poles. I have no idea what that is. Calippo. Icy poles. Calippo? I would have called it a Chaswazer. Okay, you know what it reminds me of? A Chaswazer. Yeah. I've licked a couple of Chaswazers in my time, let me tell you. And this other one is mountain pepper from Tasmania, which grows in the highlands of Tassie, almost as far south as you're really going to grow anything. Really pesto, green tea, white pepper. Really, this is Italian dinner. Beautiful, yeah. And they're brilliant to cook with. So just anchoring these gins with that contemporary Australian style, you don't know it tastes like Australia. It's a really interesting country. So we haven't even started yet, but we're tasting the rare dry gin first. Are these just in that one, or are these Australian botanicals throughout the whole line? Throughout, so you're going to end up with probably a dozen different native botanicals across these four gins alone. And we've probably worked with 60 to 80 different native Australian botanicals. But you always got to remember, we're a very juniper forward gin as well, right? So there's never going to be less than 60% juniper in every one of these, more like 70 probably. 70, 75% minimum juniper, which so it's a big canvas of juniper. You know, and I think it's just got to be made in that contemporary style, not trying to be Australianer, not trying to shove crocodile dundee in a bottle. You know, we want to actually be a contemporary, interesting gin. How good would shoving crocodile dundee into a bottle be? I don't know that you'd be, I mean, he's way too tough. I mean, you'd get stabbed. That black's had more facelifts than Dolly Parton, I reckon. If you've seen Paul Hogan recently, he looks younger than he was when he was in. It's shiny. It's a very shiny face. It's a little waxy. So the other thing I'd say is coming out of the wine industry, is gin is a logical step because gin is about aroma, flavor, balance, weight, texture, the same sort of things we would look for in wine, we look for in gin. The big difference is this is for the most part an ingredient. So, you know, going from making wine where you open it and you drink it, to making gin where it's got to look good, but it's got to look better in a drink. So making this gin, we spent 18 months on the recipe for this, threw it out a couple of times and started again, because we could get to a point where it would look good, but then it was washed out in a G&T. Now, I think it looks good, but it's really great in a gin and tonic. Now, is G&T culture in Australia similar to Western Europe, where you have these, you know, huge bulbous glasses full of all kinds of stuff? Or is it as popular? Yeah, look, the gin and tonic is growing. Thankfully, the giant balloons with 700 junipers and rosemary and everything else is not that Spanish gin tonic style, which is, I've seen a bit on the West Coast here as well, a lot of. It's not quite so much, you know, we tend to like, you know, fever tree are obviously making a great impact in Australia as they are in every other market in the world. We're trying to get people to use a little less tonic because, you know, we're trying to get people to get more three or four to one tonic to gin ratio rather than 10 to one, which is sort of where a lot of people were. But the gin is booming in Australia like enormously. And one of the things we find is we're getting people from wine. People who like flavor of wine, a bit like what Cam said before, people who like the flavors of wine like the terroir, like different places, you know, can now see because there's a gin, you know, there's a lot of domestic Australian gins now coming from little towns that might be associated with wine. A couple of them are urban distilleries. So it's a really interesting category. And one of the things we're never going to do is going to make, which a lot of Australian distilleries are doing, is making rum, vodka, gin, whisky, everything they possibly can. We make gin, but what we're trying to do is, I suppose, make a broad enough range of gins, still with a base of juniper and a really strong gin focus, but enough different gins for people. So there's the barrel aged gin that we're going to show you a little bit later. If you say, I'm a whisky drinker, I don't like gin, we go, well, we might have a gin for you. It might be a gin that's been a sherry cask for two or three years. We're going to have a gin that's been steeped in Shiraz grapes. A little bit sweet, a little bit richer. We're trying to stick to gin because we still think gin is such an incredible distilled spirit, but it's got more breadth in it than perhaps people thought. It's more versatile than adjusted gin. Yeah, that was the opportunity because gin didn't innovate. It sat there as London dry gin for 40 years or slow gin. The opportunity to come up with more contemporary styles was awesome for us. It was almost a blank canvas to come out and say, well, as Australians, we don't have to play by the rules. We're not obliged to make London dry gin. I think working in the wine industry in the Yarra through the 90s when winemakers figured out they couldn't make burgundy. They could make Yarra Valley Chardonnay and Pinot and the quality and style just went through the roof. We didn't go through that. We just started making contemporary styles. Yeah, and it is very contemporary in style. You mentioned a couple of times not being London dry, but it's still juniper forward. But it's got so much citrus in here. Yeah, and that's what that gin is. That's our gateway gin. That's to get people who might come out of vodka. We got a big beautiful distillery door in Healesville. So, Healesville for those who aren't... I mean, people in Australia don't know where Healesville is, so we're not going to speak to people here. So, Healesville is about an hour outside of Melbourne, right? So, Melbourne is the two big cities in Australia, Sydney and Melbourne. Melbourne is more south. It's probably the more sophisticated, European-y style of city. It doesn't have the glamorous sort of beaches of Sydney, but it has this beautiful culture of food and drink. And the Yarra Valley, which is, I suppose, our Napa is only an hour outside of Melbourne, and we're right in the heart of the Yarra Valley. And we'll get 200, 250,000 visitors to our distillery each year, to come and have a tasting and drink and all that sort of stuff. And we know that particularly today and even more so five years ago, there's always going to be someone who doesn't drink gin. There's always going to be the guy who drinks whiskey or only drinks beer. So we always try to make gins with enough variety within the gin portfolio that we can always get someone something that they like. And it's really important for us to build the category of gin. And it's so great to see, you know, I was up at the Binny's up in Evanston this morning, just to see how big, how much stronger the gin category is here than it was when we started. You know, we got our first, we got our first ever ranging in the US, probably 14 or 15, I reckon, you know, just in one or two stores on the west coast. And gin is a lot further progressed now in the US than it was four or five years ago. And I think there's still hopefully enough headroom for us to continue to grow. Am I right? I think one of the things here is that people always view gin as more of a seasonality beverage, you know, they think of it as a spring and a summer kind of thing. So I was curious with your climate, how like, you know, is it something that is going to find more of a niche as being this refreshing thing that's, you know, more appealing because of? We drink a lot of some, I mean, gin and tonic and summer and particularly surf, you know, on the beach and that sort of stuff in Australia is becoming massive. I would contend that one of the great winter drinks in the world is a Negroni, right? That's not a summer drink. Yeah, it is a dark, bitter, sweet, rich, alcoholic drink that you want to have indoors. You know, I don't think of Negroni outdoors. You know, you turn it into a spritz if you want to have it outdoors. You throw some soda and some orange in it. But gin also has a place, I think, in those sort of wintry drinks. We tend to release our bloody Shirazgin in the middle of in the middle of our winter down south, right? So we always release that in June, even though I think it's kind of a summery drink because you mix it with lots of, you know, sodas and lemon tonics, that sort of stuff. But for mine, I think gin is versatile enough now to be more than just a summer drink. Like we see sales boom across summer. We see sales, you know, we see drinks like, you know, a bit of martini for me. If I'm thinking of where I want to drink in Negroni, I always think I'm in an American cocktail bar somewhere. And if I want to drink a gin martini, I'm somewhere in London in a beautiful, you know, with white jackets and a fancy bar somewhere in London. And if I'm drinking a gin and tonic, I'm actually back home in Australia sitting on a balcony somewhere, you know, getting, you know, having a few strong drinks. So I think one of our challenges with gin is to make it not strictly a seasonal gin. No, for sure. Yeah. And I think a lot of that then comes to whatever your cocktail culture is like. You experiencing that. What is it like in Australia right now? Small bar scene, really emerging, doing really, really well. It's a long way behind here. Sure. Still is. But Australia's got what you call a pub culture, right? We were just discussing this not even an hour ago and across the road at Elwoods, which is just a great sort of cocktail bar slash taproom slash burgers, right? We have big pubs in Australia and only in the last 15 to 20 years have we had more small cocktail bars. It's never really been a thing. Australia was not really a cocktail drinker nation. We were beer and wine essentially right up until, I'm talking the last 20 years. But now we've had some sort of liberalisation of the licensing laws, where you can have lots of small cocktail bars and it's really grown, particularly in the big cities and now even more in some of the regional cities. But Sydney and Melbourne have, at the top end, have as great a cocktail culture as any city in the world. Like if you get the best cocktail bars in Sydney, they're as good as anywhere in London, New York, Chicago, anywhere else. We probably don't have the depth. Like if you're out here, we don't have the depth of bar that you have here. There's just so many great cocktail bars, speakeasies in cities like Chicago. We don't have that depth, but we've got a good top layer and we're getting better and better and better. We were just talking about some outer western suburbs of Sydney that are now beginning to build great cocktail bars. They did not exist two years ago. You know, in Chicago, they probably existed 40 years ago. So we've got a fair way to catch up. If you try the olive leaf martini now, I'm just gonna keep you moving on, because the olive leaf gin is not a martini, it's a gin for a martini. For a martini, yeah. It's not actually a martini, is it? When we start, no, it's not a martini. It is, I mean, it's a super dry martini. Not stirred down, warm. It's just a warm gin. I think- That's probably not the best way to sell it, is it? When we're starting to- You're in PR and marketing, but that wasn't really good, was it, Gemma? That wasn't great. You wouldn't, if you were doing a course on how to sell the gin, that's probably- I'd probably say don't do that. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Jenna. He won't listen, but if I listen to you. I think when we start playing around with a new recipe, we can start going down the road of citrus like red dry gin, we could be quite spicy, we could be quite strong. Floral, which is not a direction I've ever gone in, I find a lot of those floral gins quite soapy. Yeah, soapy, perfumey, just not my thing. This olive leaf gin is savoury, deliberately made because we love martinis. It's got rosemary, bay leaf, olive oil in there, three different- Olive oil, huh? And olive leaf is extraordinary. It's so green and herbaceous and fresh and aromatic. There's macadamia nut in this for texture and some lemon and grapefruit, as well as lemon myrtle. And to upset the anaphylactics amongst us. We just wanna make sure that we offend someone with every one of our drinks. Why the olive oil? That's kind of interesting. Yeah, look, I just was fortunate to visit an enormous olive grove called Cobram Estate in Australia during harvest. And we did an oil tasting and it was extraordinary. Those single varietal oils, you get anything from sort of peppery rocket or arugula characters right through to tropical characters. And we just did some test distillations. They don't all work, but there were three varieties that worked incredibly well. And, you know, we would tip about a litre of oil into one of our stills, which is about 600 litre capacity. And it doesn't sound like a lot of oil, but that's about 1500 olives. So it's a big botanical load. And the olive leaf, if you get to visit an olive grove during harvest, it's one of the great sensory experiences of the world. It's just herbaceous, green, fresh, bright. You just want to smash a martini. What are the three olive varieties in this, Cameron? Piqual. Thank you. Coratina. Si. And? Occhi Blanco. Oh, he got it right. You know, I had to teach him. It's Occhi Blanco. It's the Spanish right. I think you're going to have to clean the microphone. Yeah, sorry about that. So if this is designed to be the perfect martini gin, what's your vermouth? Controversial. So we have some great vermouths in Australia now, but we were just talking this morning. I love Dolan, right? If you just want to half bottle of Dolan dry and you want to go four parts of gin to one part Dolan, you've got yourself a perfect martini. I was told that the specs on our sheet are actually four and a half to one. No, they're five to one. That's a particularly dry martini. But if you like a wetish martini, two parts gin to one part. Wetish martini. Why so old fashioned? Come on. Yeah. You afraid of vermouth? I love vermouth. Don't get me wrong. I'm probably a four. You've found what is his greatest fear is vermouth. You know what? I'll swim with sharks, but don't give me vermouth. I'm terrified of those vermouthy people. So what in here is anchoring it to Australia? We drink cocky. We love, you know what we love? We love lemon myrtle. We love cocky. There's lemon myrtle in this. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we love cocky too. And the macadamia nut. I think that's a native one for us as well. But that texture on this is really savory, really textural. And it's a really good gin and tonic. I think most dry gin should make a gin and tonic, but change up the garnish. You know, red dry gin, slice of orange, this rosemary lemon, beautiful. Yeah, something more herbal. And it's a chewy gin. Now, it's a little higher proof than the rare, correct? Tiny bit, 43.8 to 41.8. So yeah, still kind of on the low side for what we see a lot of American craft producers doing, which is, can be a refreshing change of pace. When you get the macadamia nuts, they are shelled already? Yes. I heard that's like one of the definitions of a hard nut to crack, like they're almost impossible. They are, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Have you ever shelled a macadamia? Yeah, heaps. Okay. I have never shelled a macadamia. You pretty much need a mallet to crack them open. These are raw, they're not roasted, so we just keep them raw. That's when the oils are bright and really good. Do you not have people to shell your macadamia for you? Well, now we do. Okay. You guys are successful now. Since he became famous. You got a nut sheller. I mean, I assume just tripping us with him. We got a heap of them. He does. I mean, I didn't even know that you had a shell. Have we been calling the guy in the corner, the marketing suit this whole time, and really he's the nut sheller? He's one of our 80 nut shellers. question about the distillation. You had mentioned on rare dry, you've got a vapor basket for your half oranges. How many of these botanicals are in the vapor basket versus being compounded or distilled in the still itself? So pretty much we only use the vapor basket for fresh citrus. Okay. That's it. Everything else goes in the pot. We also use a column, which is a bit weird for gin. It slows everything down. You've got to start on a much lower ABV in the pot. So we started about 30 percent. If we were pot distilling, we could go up to 60. And it's a single shot gin. But what I find is that vapor basket, by the end of the distillation, the pot's going to be 98, 99 degrees because we've taken out all the alcohol and we're closer to water's boiling point. But that vapor basket will only ever be low 80s vapor. So we're not going to cook the crap out of the oranges. We're just going to extract those nice light oils. Listeners, he's not using freedom units, by the way. That's Celsius. Celsius, yes. Freedom units. Is that Fahrenheit, is it? Thank you. Had I already tasted the other one? Yeah. Someone is keeping an eye on me. As soon as you say that, I think I might have tasted that one. I don't have the spicy cough. I just want to let you know that. The spicy cough. That's my new favorite word for COVID. I mean, I could. I mean, you don't have to test anymore, do you? Okay, so Navy Strength Gin, this is, we think, well, certainly it was up until last year, the most awarded Navy Strength Gin in the world. This is one of the World Gin Masters that runs out of the UK, that Spirits international run. It won the top, one of the best Navy Strengths, five. Six. Six out of seven years. I was going to say five out of six. Yeah. Must have won it again. Yeah, six out of seven. Since the last time I read a media release. Interesting that it's not just a higher proof version of one of the two best. We started making it as a higher proof version of the rare dry, and it just didn't work. Alcohol is a fixative, you know, and this oil and water don't like each other. So the more you dilute it, the more expressive it becomes because all the oils will start to repel. So rare dry gin at 58% alcohol doesn't smell like anything. It's all anchored in there. Interesting. So we decided to make a designated Navy strength, and it's got its own botanical bill here. I noticed one of the things listed is finger limes. What the heck are those? They're super cute little limes. Yes, yes, they're tiny little. They're little baby limes. Believe it or not. They're adorable. It's in the name. They're a bit like a finger. They're about the size of a finger and you cut them open and they have these amazing citrusy like almost caviar balls of citrus. Sorry, I was told not to face you, Jenna, and actually talk back into the microphone. I can't look at you. Disarmingly beautiful she is. She got an eyebrow compliment at the very beginning of the last podcast. I don't think we have to argue about the fact that I'm the most attractive Barrel to Bottle cast member. I mean, I think that goes without saying. Well, that is a brutal, inaccurate sledge. Honest beyond belief. But their finger lines, so they're native to Australia. It's a native finger, so you cut them in half and they have these little baubles. It's a native finger. Yeah, we got very unusual ones. We have a native finger. Why do you get to the native thumb? Yeah. Some of us don't have opposing thumbs just yet. But anyway, the native lime is beautiful. They are growing some in California now, actually, and they're growing some in Europe as well. They're incredibly citrus. Like you can use them as a little garnish sometimes on oysters, a little bit of seafood. They just give a massive citrus pop. When you distill them, they're really interesting because you get almost a lime, curd, like lime, vanilla character out of it. It's not just those super high lime notes. You get this lovely round. Do you have to be careful with distillation temperature versus more traditional limes? Well, these will go in the basket. Okay. Yeah. traditional limes, you just get those super high notes. You don't get that lovely rounded vanilla character. You have to be careful about not cutting your fingers off because they're not native fingers. They're not. So what have you done with their limes? What's a pepper berry? Pepper berry is the Tasmanian pepper berry is native Australian pepper. So we use the leaf, which is that sort of pesto green tea one right there. Really warm and quite delicious. Yep, that's the leaf. You can also use the berry. Yeah, you can use the berry. Berry doesn't tend to get the berry every year. It's quite fickle to grow, so we tend to use the leaf. It's more consistent, and these are beautiful to cook with. You know, that's a great season. Oh yeah, that's the one that smells like pizza. Yeah, Tasmanians can be very fickle, both the berries and the humans. What have you tried, botanical-wise, that hasn't worked? Anchovies. Asparagus. Salmon. Do you remember that salmon? Do you smell your whole dinner in there? Did you ever try the smoked salmon vodka that's made in Alaska? That's the one. That's the one. Oh, I enjoyed that a lot. I dry-wretched when I drank that. That sounds disgusting. He's not allowed back to Dry Float Distillery after tasting that. The week before I did asparagus, I did parsnip. Parsnip is beautiful to distill. I've never used it in a gin, but I will one day. It gave us a result I wasn't expecting. The following week at the same marketplace, I go to asparagus thinking maybe it'll give me a result. No, it's the exact result that you would expect. Let's talk about this gin because this is a serious gin. This is really, really good. It's a big gin. Yeah. This is spicy. My favorite botanical is in this gin, which is, we would call it tumeric. I think it's curcumin over here, is it? Is that the- No, we've got tumeric over here. Tumeric, yeah. I love it. It was a mistake. Turned up, we got a box of fresh ginger turned up one day, and I opened it up and I said, well, that's not ginger, that's tumeric, which looks a bit like ginger and a carrot have had a great night out. So we distilled it and I love it. That's like a yuzu. We'll get on to that. We'll get on to that. It's dill, it's carrot, it's cucumber, really fresh, but really rich, which is a weird sort of balancing act and it just fills out the palate on this. Ginger gives it a nice brightness. We got to be a bit careful with star anise on this because if you use- That's not a subtle flavor, yeah. Yeah, everything's ouzo if you stuff that one up. So I love it in Southside's, Gimlet's. It's a sometimes food though. It's 58.8% ABV, so it's not a school night thing for me. Yeah, beautiful, bright. Anything with mint and lime and- Fans of curry, I mean, have to try this gin. Listen to the line up here. It says coriander, cardamom, cassia, the pupperberry leaf, lavender, angelica, star anise, lemon myrtle, finger limes, turmeric and ginger. Yeah, it's a curry in a bottle, isn't it? Yeah. What a really nice integrated flavors as well. Yeah. It's just really beautiful. Cameron tells the story that the first time it won the master at the gin master's probably seven years ago, I reckon by now. Yeah. The judging panel, the head judge didn't believe it was 58, did not believe the ABV we registered. It does not drink it at all. No. And they retested it thinking that there's no way that that should be in the Navy strength class and it came back at 59. Yeah. We were allowed 0.3 leeway. Yeah. He was quite funny. He said, we can't release the results until we test it. All judges think it's high 40s and came in at 59. The second year, when it won it again, he said, well, we don't need to test the bottle. We know this one. And that's one of the things I reckon that we've got going for us. Why don't we got these beautiful stills? So we're about to get our sixth Carl still. What's the, how big is the charge on one of these stills? We've got a 450, a 600 and a 2,000. These are liters. So the new one's 2,000. 2,000 is a big still. Yeah. So that's a 500 gallon, 600 gallon pot, if you like. And we're going to get another one of them. But also, I think Cameron sometimes undersells himself. Like there's a combination of these great stills. But I mean, you've got a great distiller, right? And someone with a great palette as well, because I think- Are we getting this on tape? I'm either jet lagged or drunk, or both. Well, all your glasses are empty. That's interesting. No, these are my glasses. Well, I think, though, the key to Navy strength is trying to get it so it's not hot, you know, and that can be really brutal. Some of the Navies that are out there, they're really great. But I do think it makes a great drink. Watching bartenders play with Navy strength gin is epic. And it makes a good gin and tonic as well. Just, you know, maybe a lime leaf, a bit of ginger, good ginger mule is a fantastic drink with that. It goes great with cafe lime, while we're on the curry front. Stick a cafe lime leaf in that gin and tonic and it's a ripper. Is distillery tourism a thing in Australia right now? So we are in a region of, I don't know, what 70-odd winery cellar doors, I would have said. Yeah, at least. And we're the most visited of all the wineries. So we've got a distillery door now that will take, as I said, 200, 250,000 visitors. We have some- The great thing about distilleries in Australia is, there's only certain areas where you can grow grapes. There's only certain places in Australia where wine is grown. So for instance, in Illinois, you're not going to be growing Pinot Noir and Shiraz. But you can- People have tried. Yeah. I once said that about New York state and they started telling me about all that great upper New York. Finger Lakes. Yeah, the Finger Lakes. Finger Lakes, Friesland. We've got great distilleries because we've got such a big broad range of climate as well as anything else. We've got great rum distilleries up in Northern Queensland, which is as tropical as anywhere in the Pacific or anywhere in the southern part of the Caribbean, for instance. So we really have a great potential, great rum industry in the northern parts of New South Wales. We have great whisky down south. Tasmania started making whisky because it was a lot like the Scottish climate. Then we got all these great places where we can make gin. Gin is certainly the most produced of all spirits in Australia now. Distillery door visiting has become a real thing in Australia. We're starting to get a little bit more government support because we're not a tenth of the size of the Australian wine industry. We have a big global Australian wine industry and a very small distilling industry. We're the biggest of the small guys. That's what I was saying about the Shiraz gin just off before we started. We crush more Shiraz than any winery in the Yarra Valley, and we don't make a single bottle of wine. So we'll do 170? No. We've gone to 253 tons of Shiraz. Wow. That's a lot. Seven years ago, the first bloody Shiraz, we actually stole 250 kilos of grapes from the winery. We were based at, we started at the back of a mate's winery, and we stole 250 kilos. 250 tons? So we're now 253 tons of Shiraz. Wow. How are we going to sell all of that? That's your job. That's not my job. No, that's your job. Yeah, that's your job. So when people visit, can you serve at the distillery? Are you making cocktails? So that's probably like round zero for innovation and like getting feedback. Absolutely. Where are you getting these grapes from now? Are you guys growing them or this is a vineyard, grows them on contract for you and brings them in multiple vineyards? A series of vineyards and that's the key. It's got to be cool climate. The Yarra is not a warm climate region. It's not the Barossa. It's cool climate, more Rome than Barossa. So Shiraz is medium bodied, spicy, that kind of Chinese five spice, white pepper, and it works really, really well with gin. We were just lucky. We just happened to steal the right fruit that day. It is gin and juice. We de-stem the grapes. We put the grapes in a tank, tip rare dry gin at high proof, straight over the top, and we leave it for about eight weeks. We don't add sugar like a slow gin would. We don't add color. We just press it off, and truthfully, we add more gin. That's it because we wanted it to taste like gin, not just fortified grape juice. So the grapes are pressed, and they're just crushed in a tank, and gin gets added to the top. We don't even crush them. We just de-stend them. Yeah, whole bunches, whole berries. Whole berries. And then gin gets, and it's the rare dry that gets added to the top, and then slowly, then you're going to add more gin as it gets squeezed out. We'll let that sit there for about eight weeks. Eight weeks. Then we'll put it through a press, and the grape juice brings the ABV down to about 23, 24. And we just add more high proof to get it up to 37. 37.8. Do the grapes actually get fermented in this? The spirits are too strong. Gin and juice, that's it. And again, it's a great way to prove. And there's no added sugar to this? No, it's just grape juice. That sweetness is grape juice. I mean, we tested. Yeah, isn't it cool? It's really good. We tested the only slow gins that were available in Australia seven years ago. I put them through a lab to check the sugar level. The highest was 480 grams per liter. 48% sugar, added white sugar. The driest was 280. You're not a Dubochet slow gin enthusiast? Not for me. This is about 95 grams of just natural sugar, but it tastes sweeter because it's 10% higher in alcohol. So it's got that nice kind of sweet effect without being super sweet. It's considerably less sweet than any slow gin. It's less than half the sugar of the driest of the slow gins. I like that it still finishes like a true gin though. It's got this herbal, papery finish. It's got it. That helps having the alcohol. So a lot of slow gins are in the mid-20s, like 24, 26% ABV, which you shouldn't be legally allowed to call them gin in Australia. Gin has to be 37%. Well, I think the other thing too is that even the gins that are made with actual slow berries, they can still have a medicinal character to them that I'm not that wild about. That's what's kind of neat about this. Well, the other thing is if you've ever had a slow berry, they're just so tart and bitter. You have to just add a whole heap of sugar to make it drinkable. They're very, very acidic. It's a curio of them olden days. It's not a particularly great drink. And if it wasn't for the freaking Singapore sling, it probably wouldn't exist anymore, frankly. Yeah. Slows are interesting because they are so acidic, whereas grapes have just lovely natural sweetness. So what we've learnt over time is we pick the vineyards at different times and we'll pick one vineyard in particular quite early so that it retains really nice natural acid. So we don't add acid to this. Capra and spice, like a rhone. And then we'll pick some quite late to give us more of that sort of red berry colour juiciness. So we've sort of learnt quite a bit over time as to how to manage it and grow it. The quality of it is significantly better making big quantities of it because big tanks don't oxidise. They hold their temperature, they hold their freshness. When we were stuffing around with little 100 litre tanks of this on a 40 degree day, in Melbourne, the temperature just goes up, you lose freshness, brightness. Now, we can just maintain that brightness all the way through. And do you temperature control the tank then now? Yeah, we've got temperature jackets on the tank and we bottle this throughout the year. So we keep bottling, we don't do it all in one go. So we're trying to keep it as fresh as possible. Okay, so, but you're only getting one shot at harvest per year. Correct. That's exactly right. Yeah. We haven't, you know what, this is probably not far away from getting two harvests a year in viticulture. They do in Southeast Asia. Somewhere in the Highlands or something. They can sometimes get a second crop. But our cropping's coming earlier and earlier every year. You're talking more, February's that used to be Marches and Marches that used to be Aprils. And up in the, like in the Hunter Valley, they're now picking fruit first week of January. So like literally the first week they can call it, vintage 2022, they're already starting to harvest grapes. So it's coming a little earlier. And then I thought the last one we'd show you, because I'm just moving it along, Cameron, because you know, I need the people who are listening. I've got other things to do. Oh, I agree. I will interject that. They've got a baseball game to watch. They've got the NBA finals on. Come on. Like many Tiki cocktails, we talk about Tiki drinks all the time. Yeah. Poorly made ones are maligned and turn people away from it. Properly made ones are different level. The Singapore Sling, when made correctly, I think is one of the best drinks there is. And I think you could make- It's not even that good that they're- So I haven't been there, but Gaz Regan's book, Joy of Mixology, that's who I believe in. And when his recipe, he's using cherry hearing, I think you could substitute this in for the gin and the cherry hearing component. So then you just need lime, you need a little bit of pineapple. So people are putting that in Negroni's and making riffs on Negroni's where they're subbing out half the gin and half the sweet vermouth. Interesting. So people are doing interesting things with that bloody Shiraz. I mean, it's a unique product that has spawned in Australia alone, at least a dozen imitators of Shiraz gins and Pinot Noir gins and everything else. How do you guys recommend drinking it? Because it's interesting to taste, but it seems like it's a bit pigeonholed from a cocktail standpoint. But if you think outside the box like Roger, and you're just not a Neanderthal like me, you can come up with ideas. Watching bartenders play with it over the last seven years has been amazing. A sour has become a bloody sour, a south side's a blood side, a jasmine is a bloody jasmine. Sammy Ng did a Tom Collins and called it Who Shot Tom Collins. See, make a nice lemony Tom Collins and drop some bloody Shiraz on the top, and it just feeds down through the drink. It's really beautiful. What would be great with this is some of that passion fruit, the cora, the chinola. Chinola? How good is chinola? Chinola is unbelievable. I'm going to tell you what's better with chinola is the Navy strength. So the Navy strength with that ginger and lime. And so basically, to call it two ounces of this, about the same or a little bit less of chinola, which is the Panamanian passion fruit liqueur. Dominican, yeah. Dominican, sorry, my bad, which has just been starting to be imported into Australia at my recommendation because I had it at BCB Brooklyn. You're a national hero. I had to talk about myself, didn't I? I had to bring myself into this. I don't know what Australia would be without you, honestly. He's an influencer. I know, it's how he is. I almost have a blue tick on social media. I mean, I don't. Are you on TikTok? No. Oh, well, you're not much of an influence with that. I think my daughter, comma, on the other hand, well, James France's daughter. Jenna's offended. Jenna just got us on TikTok, actually. I did, like two weeks ago. Do you think I could be on TikTok, Jenna? I think we could arrange that. I think we could make that happen. Jenna, on behalf of Australia, don't. We don't need it. We only have, like, 51 followers right now on TikTok. So if you're listening, please follow us, at Binny's Bev on TikTok, please. It's more than just dancing. It's very fast paced. So I think you'd be pretty good on it. We have zero dancing videos right now. My kids have told me not to. People even realize they've been offended. My kids have told me I have two teenage kids and they've told me not to ever be on TikTok. And the final one, we just thought for a little bit of fun, because this is not available in the US, although there's a tiny Lenny bit. No, there's not, no. Suit in the corner says, no, not available in the US. So we'll just move on. Anyway, thanks, it's been a real joy being here. But it's a Chardonnay barrel gin. So what we do like to do, just in a bit of a throwback to our wine days, is we love to age a bit of gin in barrels. So this was the first one we ever made, which is, we started with nine barrels from mate to mate Chardonnay. They had some old Chardonnay barrels, mainly sort of white burgundy style barrels, some French oak that had various amounts of Chardonnay in them over the years. And we just put the rare dry gin into those barrels. And this is now, well, that's the new one. How many, how long has that been in barrel? Well, it's kind of a salera now, but it's a little bit salera. So we'd be, it'd be an average of three and a bit, that'd be three and a bit years now, wouldn't it? We kind of did this because when we did our road trip through North America, the first gin we had. I see that. That's a lie. That's just 12 to 15 months. It's much longer than that. That's the old low. Much longer than that, yeah. Did I just hit the- You just hit the microphone at the bottle. My bad. One of the, pretty much the first gin we had in Portland when we got off the plane on that road trip. Was Ransom Old Tom. Ransom Old Tom. And I just loved it and it was balanced. It's a great gin. It's not an old tom. That's a- No, it's a barrel aged gin. Yeah. It's a barrel aged gin. It's just like, just because you made a barrel. Yeah. But good stuff. But an old tom gin is a gin that's just been sweetened. Yeah. It's a London dry without a sugar. What we're trying to do- What we're trying to do- Shhh, you. It was two sugar cubes. What we're trying to do is see these botanical oils oxidize and change. So that is rare dry gin, the first gin that we tasted that's been in barrel. And it's been filtered through those barrels over a number of years. But it just picks up character. It's got this really cool sort of ginger ale character. And there's no ginger in that. That is cardamom, green cardamom will oxidize into a sort of gingery character over time. And it just gets a bit of sweetness from the oak. And so it's a different base gin going in? It's rare dry gin. Rare dry gin. We put it in at 60 odd percent alcohol. And I love it. I think it's a really cool sipping gin. Good Negroni gin, good old fashioned gin. But I just, yeah, I love it. This would be great. I love making gin martinis with white Blanco vermouth. Oh yeah. This would be great with that. Dolan Blanc or Camo. Take glasses out of mouth. Would be great in a martinez. Yep. See, that's actually a decent contribution from me. I'd like to thank myself for that. I mean, I was about to suggest it too because you guys printed on the side of the label. Oh, did we? But a barrel-aged gin, a martinez with barrel-aged gin is an underrated cocktail. Yeah. OK, so we've also got just FYI. So we have more surprise bottles. We have more surprise bottles. We're big fans of those. We've got sherry cask gin. So this is some old. Same gin. Same gin. In a solera of these would have been 35, 40 year old McWilliams sherry casks. And some original hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh hh h. Okay, so it was a bit unfortunate. So I live in I live in Sydney by the beach and a guy did get mauled by a shark just down the down the just not far away. And that was the first lethal shark attack in Sydney waters in. Oh, it was lethal. Yeah, he died. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm talking Sydney CBD beach, right? I'm not talking somewhere out down unpatrolled beach down the South Coast or anything like that. I'm talking 10 minute drive from Bondi, if you know Bondi, you know, which is the main beach in Sydney, which is. I'm going to nod and smile. That's all the surfing stuff there. Let's start with the opera house and go south. I've seen Finding Nemo, yeah. Sharks are the least of the worry. Now all of our nonstop nature shows talk about all the spiders and everything that kills you there. Limitless. How long since someone's been killed? Like so the most deadly. Hours. Funnel web spiders. No one dies. No one gets killed by spiders anymore. What about kangaroos? They're oddly aggressive at times, right? They are. And every once in a while, that picture pops up one online that, you know, it looks like a young Schwarzenegger, but it's a big alpha male. Kangaroos are a pest in a lot of us. They're like deer here, right? We like to shoot kangaroos. Every once in a while, someone talks about eating kangaroo meat here and then like skippy burgers get played. But no one eats it. I used to like kangaroos. I was one of the guys trying to push the whole idea of eating kangaroo because it's a great meat. It's very lean. It's very high in protein. It's very good. And it's delicious, mate. You have to undercook it. And we got millions of them, really. And we have millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions. Something I'll go to Australia just for the exotic meats. Yeah. Well, Stu loves koala, too. Yeah, I don't mind koala. I eat koala and possum often when I'm at home. Koala is kind of... Possums are different there than here. Here, they're just like rat. They're weird rats that eat your garbage and they have more teeth than any other mammal. In Australia, they're much they're adorable. So it's kind of f***ed up that you like eating them. Well, I think we should offer an open invitation to all three of you to come to Australia. The marketing guy in the corner has got a massive travel budget and he'd like to fly you all down. Finally, the marketing suit in the corner pays off. On the flying kangaroos, a little plug for Qantas. We'll cook you some koala. It's kind of a cross between platypus and swan. I thought we weren't supposed to eat it now because most of them died in the fires last year. You don't eat koala. That's honestly a rudimentary and frankly, appalling attempt at humor. So, let's have a bunch of STDs anyway. Oh my God, koalas have got everything. They're stoned, like 98 percent of them. I brought it up as a plug to Australian hops, which are extremely popular. You were tying this into eating kangaroo and hops. Bringing up what Americans think of when they think of Australia. Cascade hops. Yeah, so like people are thinking of Australian varieties of hops. So I was wondering if you've ever put worked with hops for. We've used cascade hops in a beer. That's American hops. That's a Western. Yeah, galaxy. Galaxy is fully aromatic hop. They don't all work. Some get a bit resiny and a bit, if I'm honest, a bit bong water like. And others. I think they know what bong water tastes like. I do, unfortunately. We call that dank here. It's a desirable characteristic. We call it dank. I don't know if bong water is a desirable character. But some of them are really aromatic and really cool. Yeah. So we've played around with them, not only in small batch gins, but something. Are you using a lot of galaxy hops over here? Oh yeah. Breweries are doing all their best to get them. I mean, there's, you know, hop contracts can be tricky and there's, you know, so that was bred out of Tasmania, wasn't it? The hot HPA, they're called, the Hop Products Australia were the guys who created it. Australian and New Zealand hops are very, very popular in the American pop industry. New Zealand, yeah. Nelson's a good hop. Yeah, Ruaka. Roger and I were talking earlier, all of the tobacco farms that used to be in Australia are now pretty much all hops. Yeah, hop pines are growing through the roof. It's a very fast growing plant as it happens. How many different gins do you guys make that are for sale at any time down there? I mean, you have four here, but you have Small Batch, Limited Releases, things like that there. Best part of a dozen. Different ones going at any one time. We might make some as a collab with someone who we like. We might make one. So for instance, the Bongwater one, which wasn't Bongwater, but it had hops in it. We made with a pub group to celebrate the reopening of a great pub. That's why I brought it up. It had some stout in it as well. I've turned beer drinkers on to gin because IPA drinkers, IPA's king around here. Like everyone's obsessed with it. There's a lot of similarity to overlap in the citrus, the tropical fruit. There's a lot to love. We just released a gin called fresh Yuzu gin that we hope the TTB will one day approve the label and get it to you guys in North America. But Yuzu is such a strange, twisted little citrus fruit. It's just lemon, lime, kumquat, grapefruit. Stu described it quite beautifully the other day at a dinner, but I don't think it's repeatable as to how someone bred the Yuzu. So constantly playing with small batch things and that's part of the fun of it. Otherwise, it's Groundhog Day, you know. We've got a great 70 litre Carl still, that's our pilot still, that makes 30 bottles of gin as good as the production stills. So we can muck around a lot and just keep playing with asparagus and asparagus. Australia's got some amazing native plums, native peaches, like we've got a lot of great native fruits that we're only just beginning to experiment with, to be honest. Lots of myrtles, myrtles coming out of our- Yeah, that's lemon myrtle, that's cinnamon myrtle, anise myrtle, honey myrtle. Who knew there were so many myrtles? Yeah, I know, there's myrtles coming out of our Kalamazoo. That's strawberry gum, and I brought in strawberry gum. Let me pass that over. Do you have any of this on display at the distillery? We have a brewery here that's all about botanicals, and it's cool when you go in there and see them all in jars. Yeah, they're all there. And we grow a lot, too, actually. They're on your website. That gum tree, you know, gum tree eucalypts are really hard to distill. Some are toxic, and some, honestly, they just smell like liniment, whereas that's really tropical. There's lemon-scented gum, there's peppermint gum, river mint. I'm glad you bought some really good fresh botanicals this time. Remember, sometimes we have some, the nuts are fresh. Yeah. I mean, smuggling green leafy substances in my luggage has become a thing. Hey, one question I wanted to ask on production stuff. I mean, a distillery is a famously water-intensive industry, and how's that been for you guys in what has now become a pretty famously drought-heavy country? Yeah, we've got to be really careful because, you know, if we're not- Water and energy. Water and energy. You know, if we're irresponsible, if we just set it up and use condenser water and tip it down the drain, we would go through, gosh, 70 or 80,000 liters of water a day. Wow. But if we try and chill it down and bring it back in, you know, it's a 300 kilowatt chilling system. So part of the building we've actually just opened is we've got an enormous copper veil that goes around the entire building that acts to passively cool that water before it goes back in to the system. And in winter, we actually run hot water through the air conditioning unit to heat up the distillery tasting room. So you're getting free heat, you're knocking all of that heat out passively and saving all of that water. So we're a carbon neutral distillery and a carbon neutral gin. First carbon neutral distilled products in Australia. We only got it certification in the second week of March. Yeah, a month or so ago. So we're a carbon neutral distillery as a business, but we also have carbon neutral products. So everything that will come from the distillery after sort of by the middle of this year will be a carbon neutral signed and logoed product. And is that mostly from this? Upstream and downstream. Heat recapture system or what else do you have in place there? We have solar, all of our gins on tap, so we don't open our own bottles to serve drinks. We refill bottles. At the distillery. Tonic is now on tap. Those two moves took 800 kilograms of glass a week out of the business. Wow. Solar on the roof was great. There's a couple of other passive things in there, but you're right. A couple of years ago, we went to Scotland to take a break from gin and drink some whiskey. And every distillery had a giant lake, so their water supply and their water cooling is just not an issue. We don't have the advantage of that, so we have to think outside the square and to passively cool it just basically through a fence to run water through the copper line and then back in. That's wild. It's expensive, but genius. And this is a pretty sizable distillery. What was your LPA output last year as far as listeners, leaders of proof alcohol? Which we call LALs. LALs. We all make a million bottles of gin this year. A million bottles of 700 or 750 ml bottles of gin, probably maybe a little bit more, to be honest. Yeah. So do the math. It's more now that you've found out we're doing 253 tons of Shiraz. Yeah. I did not know we were doing 250 tons because we're in the middle of harvest is now, as you can imagine. So if Cameron, if he hadn't put the Kentucky Derby ahead of his real job, which would be back in the distillery making bloody Shiraz gin, he should be there right now. He'd run a week off of cutting oranges now. That's it. And crushing his own macadamias. Yeah. I beg your pardon. Yeah, no, a million bottles. So I'm going to say, let's call it loosely 300,000 lals. Yeah, a bit more than that, I'd say, yeah. Maybe 400,000 lals. Wow. million bottles. I probably could have done that by just going, it's about 41% alcohol. A million bottles, carbon neutral, pretty damn cool. And we've got four different gins on the shelf, all reasonably priced. We get a lot of people coming to the distillery to tell us they don't like gin, which is a weird life choice. But then you figure out that what they don't like is old style London dry. Yeah, that was me. Or they don't like tonic. That they drank warm when they were 16 in their parents' liquor cabinet and gave up on it. Threw up gin and cranberry juice off the balcony of my college apartment. And I was like, I'm never drinking gin again. That was terrible. What was that like 18 months ago? I was like, six years ago or so. Yeah, so I hated gin for a very long time. It was great. I would drink all of these, sip on all of them, make cocktails with all of them. Big fan now. Well, I thank you. I did it all myself. Very humble man. I want to thank all my friends who got me to where I am today. Nobody's more humble than me. Guys, thanks a lot. This was great. I tasted through these before, but I didn't have the full koala meat experience that we got this afternoon. So this is really great. Listen, these gins are great. These are really great balanced gins, but they're a modern take that's more than just like lemon oil tasting. There's a lot of gin on the market like we talked about earlier, and a lot of that is from Crafted Shows in US, but that also means there's a lot of middling quality gins on the market. These are really interesting and they're different and they're really good. So we really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Cocktail fans need to check out this Navy Strength. It's probably the most interesting Navy Strength I've ever had. That's why I won all those awards, Roger. Were you not listening? Come on. All right. So that was it, folks. Appreciate you tuning in this week. If you like content like this, do us a favor. Leave us a review on the podcast platform of your choice. Tell your friends, tell your mom about the show. We'll see you next week. I'm Pat. I'm Roger. I'm Jenna. I'm Stu from Four Pillars. And I'm Cam from Four Pillars. We love you, Binny's, and keep tasting. Keep tasting, Binny's. Thanks, everyone.