Welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm your host, Pat Brophy. You're always with Kirstin Ellis. How are you doing? Good. How are you? I'm very good. We have a special guest host with us today, Brett Pontani of the Whiskey Hotline. Good morning, Brett. Good morning. How are you? I'm very good. So who have you brought with us today? Kirstin Grant, who's a fifth generation family member of the family who started the Grand Splendz and also Glenfiddich Balvinie, Kinenvy, Elsebay, and Hendrick's Gin. Our other special guest is distillery manager, master distillery emeritus, retired until Kirstin asked him to come out and do things, Ian Millar, who has, not to date your age, but at least 40 years' experience in the distilling business in Scotland. Well, welcome, guys. Thanks for joining us today. We wanted to have a little conversation about the history of this iconic single-mall brand, Glenfiddich, by all means, and other parts of the William Grant business as well. But we want to talk about what's happened in that Glenfiddich, what's been happening, what's going to happen, where do you guys stand on new innovative products, things like that. So, I mean, Ian, can you give us a little background history on your experience with this company? I started in 1998 with William Grant, having spent 25 years with Diageo, managing a few of the lovely distilleries, and pick of which would be Mortlach, where William Grant also spent 20 years before he started to build Glenfiddich. So, he uses 20 years to accumulate both wealth and knowledge, so that he could then build his own distilleries, and use that knowledge and that wealth clearly to build it. I spent five years. I think I probably drank more than five than he did in his 20, because I was heavily into quality control. He was into acquiring knowledge and wealth. So, it depends what you put your good time to. But 20 years working for a family company versus the 25. The adjuved spent a lot of money, invested a lot of money in me, and we had a really good time there. But it's hugely different working for a small family company. It is growing massively, but it still has that small family company feel. And yeah, we're pretty privileged to hang out with Kirstin, and we've got a great team here in the States, most of which are Scotchers, thank God for that. We have a great time enjoying ourselves and spreading the good word of great liquid. As a lead in, the first whiskey we have in front of us to try is the number one selling single malt in the world. Has been that way with maybe one brief blip for at least the last 10, 15 years. There might be a good reason for why that's the number one seller in the world is Glenfiddich 12 year old Kirstin. Tell us about Glenfiddich 12 year old. Well, as well as being one of the biggest selling in the world, it's the world's most awarded single malt whiskey. What we believe is it was certainly the single malt that pioneered the category. Before we took my two uncles, Uncle Sandy and Uncle Charlie, took single malt to the world. It really wasn't a category in the industry. It was more about the blends. So it was really Uncle Charlie that thought hard about this, that single malt in its own right should be a category. So we really believe that William Grant's, and particularly Glenfiddich, we like to believe ourselves as pioneering. So we think that this is probably one of the most pioneering things that the company has ever done. So hence the reason we have such a long history in the category and such a good footprint across the globe with this particular product. So it's certainly the biggest selling of our Glenfiddich range by quite a long way. But there's a lot more in the range for people to experiment with. Right. And you introduced to the United States in 1963? Yes. And that really truly was marketed as such, the first single malt in the United States? Yeah. At the time, whiskey marketing was an interesting concept. So the guys making Scotch and the word marketing didn't really go together in the same way that they do now. So it kind of evolved rather than a strategic marketing plan. So it was certainly Uncle Sandy that brought the product over. And as my Uncle Charlie used to say as well, drink by drink, bar by bar, bottle by bottle was how we built the brands. But when we used to talk to them about the old days, a lot of what they did then, you can see it in the same ways that we still do it now. We like to have the brand ambassador program. It's very important to us at William Grant's. We were really the first company to introduce brand ambassadors in this way. And we really believe that we have to build these brands from the bottom up. We don't really like to do big flash television advertising. It doesn't really work the way that we want it to. So it's a lot about just going around to see people, shoe leathering we call it. We go around to see people and we let them try the whiskeys and we talk about our brands. Didn't you end up building a very large grain distillery because of television advertising? Yes. So, yeah, we had an interesting story from my uncle who, without going too far into it, had a disagreement with the combine, as it was called at the time, which is now known as Diageo, about not advertising whisky on television. So they came to see him and said, what are you playing at? He said, well, he wasn't really wanting to say and he said, we're going to cut you off if you do this. He said, yeah, well, screw you. So he decided to build Gervan Distillery so that we could have a bigger supply of blended whisky and grain whisky. So in 1961, my uncle bought a plot down in Gervan on the West Coast and built Gervan Distillery, which is now the largest grain distillery in Scotland and within nine months with no planning permission. And our biggest customer is Diasho. Yeah, I mean, it really is. Having had the privilege of visiting the distillery somewhat recently with Brett, I mean, it is unlike anything else I've ever seen. It is a distillery on a scale that it's hard to wrap your mind around. Exactly how many get pure liters and gallons of whisky are being produced there, being stored there, being blended there. And then, you know, a small little gin brand called Hendrix on top of it, which has just doubled in capacity in the stills as well. So, yeah, so there's a great story that Ian can tell you about my uncle and his bike at Girvan Distillery. He lived in a caravan on site to properly project manage and manage the money and to make sure that everybody, including the welders, were doing their days. He was always on the welders' case, probably because they smoked and hung out a lot. But they got so, yeah, they got so pissed off with him. They actually took the rubber tires off his bicycle and welded his bicycle to the highest girder in the whole of the distillery. But as he was walking through, looking for his bike, he kind of noticed it and he went, yeah, okay. How long did it stay up there, I wonder? Well, I don't think he went up to get it. So guys, what do we think about the 12 year old? Well, you said this is the most ubiquitously found Scotch whisky around. I don't know if I can categorically claim that, but I would like to think that's it. We certainly have a huge global footprint. We're selling this to over 180 countries. I was going to say, I think I read it was something in over 180 countries. Yeah, 180 countries. So yeah, I would like to think it's up there. Yeah, for sure. In Glenfiddich, there's no small distillery either. Size wise, where does this compare to other single malt distilleries? It's pretty big. Yeah. 28 million liters. 28 million liters. Well, no, we're just expanding. We're only doing 14, but we'll take it up to about 2022. If you look at the facility now, because we're just taking all the scaffolding down, so you can actually see the stonework. It's slate. It's beautiful stone. It's very traditional. And it's very much in line with the architecture you see in an old village. We're very aware that we don't want to have a negative impact on the environment. So it's a nice looking distillery, and it fits really well with what we have there. Just blends in with everything else. Absolutely. Stunning. So we've got to build for the future. Just going back to the 12. We talked last night about the perfect way to drink 12. I'm just aware that some people might have a bottle of 12. So for me, I told you, warm it up in your hands. It's a patient thing. Take about five minutes to warm up, then two drops of water. That is the perfect serve for enjoying the 12-year-old. It really enhances the notes, the flavors. If you've got a whiskey, you've got to find a way of getting the best out of it. And for me, warming it up, two drops of water, is almost the perfect serve for me, the best way to enjoy Glenfiddich 12. How did you come about two drops, or just over time? By trial and error, by trial and error. I'm being patient, which is difficult for me sometimes. I know how that is. Yeah, I tend to drink whiskey before it has a chance to really get that warm. So what makes Glenfiddich 12 stand out from the other Glenfiddichs in the line? It's a light and delicate one. So this has matured 15% in European oak and 85% in American oak. We like American oak because, as we said last night, it showcases the individual flavors and aromas that you get from one single malt distillery. If we all use European oak, then that would reduce the difference you get in flavor and aroma from distillery to distillery. So everybody uses a combination of American and European, trying to find out that unique balance that best showcases the flavors of that one single distillery. So 15% European, 85% American is just perfect for this lovely, delicate, light, fruity, typical Speyside whiskey. Me to come in earlier about Glenfiddich, 12 year old being the number one selling of all single malt whiskey, and I said that it's been that way for a while, but there was a minor blip. In that, when another brand for a period of time surpassed it, can you, I think that you wanted to get a little bit more in depth into what happened. The brand that overtook us actually said, we've got the number one position on volume. And I think that's not something I'd ever like to say. If you're not number one on volume and value, then for God's sake, don't say it. So they managed to steal the number one position for three months on volume alone. Then they kind of didn't anymore. So where they're on volume and value, we actually have two whiskeys in the top 10 of best-selling Singapore. So our 12-year-old and our 15-year-old. Our 15-year-old's been in the top 10. It's only 15-year-old that sells volume and value inside the top 10 and has been since 2006, which is a pretty good statement to make for a class whisky. Yeah, I think that 15-year-old is one of the total unsung, undervalued things on our shelves here, at least in our market. I don't know if it gets, it certainly doesn't get specifically overlooked, but it's been so good and so consistent for so long, and I think sometimes people kind of forget what tremendous value it presents, too. You have to understand something. You can be number one in terms of volume and value because of decisions you made 12, 15, 20 years ago. I mean, that's probably had to be one of the most difficult parts of your position in terms of distillery management and trying to decide production and things that were going because what you're doing today, you're not doing for tomorrow. What you're doing for today, you're doing for 12, 15, 20 years from now. We had a guy who worked for Diageo and I asked him, this is high up, so he's this guy called Turnbull Hutton. He was a bit of a legend in his time. So we asked Turnbull, how do you predict for Singamalt what it is you need in the future? He said, it's very simple. We take the enthusiasm from the marketeers, we divide that by four and that's what we produce. His name was Turnbull Hutton, like Jabba the Hutton. He's about 6'6 across the way and up and down away and he drove a Mini. And he was a director of the Wraith Rovers Football Club in Fife. Lovely guy. Just going back to what I was saying briefly, when we're talking about the 12 year old, so my uncle Charlie really was a legend in the industry too and his favourite whisky in our entire range was Glenfiddich 12. And he used to say to me, it's the true taste of Speyside. So going back to what we think about Glenfiddich and he always used to drink 12 at home, 18 in front of the customers, but 12 at home. So if you could say to someone who's new to Scotch kind of understanding the different flavours of tepicity of the areas, what would you say would kind of describe a classic Speyside style? Light, pretty, balanced, a round boldness to it, nothing aggressive in the mouth, no bitterness, no sharpness, well matured. I think remember Speyside is surrounded by flat country on the coast. That's where all the malt barley was grown and is still grown. So the bulk of it is there. So Speyside is busy for a reason, because it's close to the barley fields. Okay. And one of the most expensive things in the past was actually getting the barley to the maltings to the facility. Hence why we're all there, surrounded by barley fields. We're moving on to the Glenfiddich 14 year old from American Oak. And you made a comment earlier when you were talking about the ballots, 85% American, 15% European. Tell us about what the thinking was behind the 14. BBR, Bourbon Barre Reserve, is actually an old shoot of rich oak. So we had a project called Project Indiana. And Project Indiana was to create a 14 year old for the French and Canadian markets. But then everybody else found out about it and suddenly we ended up selling this product into more countries than was initially thought. But we didn't have a name for it. We just called it Project Indiana. And everybody kept saying, it's better rich in oak flavors. Yeah, well, what are we going to call it? Yeah, it's better rich in oak flavors, what we're going to call it. So we called it Rich Oak. A rough night with that one. Yeah, I know, months. But the Rich Oak is a combination of European and American. So all we've done, well, that's not all we've done, because clearly we've done a little bit more than that, is we took the European oak out of it. We wanted to create something that was truly an American product, produced wholly in American casks, and looking for flavors that would reach out to the American audience. So this has been styled specifically with the American audience in line. Another thing is, this is not available anywhere. You've got to buy it in the States. I can't even get this at the distillery. I had to get ambassadors like David to bring it back to the distillery, so we could have it in our own bar. Wow. It used to say Exclusive to America on the Pack, but there's such a high demand and we're finding bottles appearing in other markets without our control, so we are considering expanding the footprint of this, but at the moment it's an American And it's amazing. I mean, if you take that little bit of sort of spice and ground fruit out from the sherry component, you really get that vanilla comes out. I think generally a bourbon barrel really allows a distillate to be the star of the show. So going back to the 12th for a second, when you say 85-15, for American, is that ex-bourbon as well primarily or what's the? Well, you probably heard me saying American oak. Yeah. Because we use casks from bourbon industry, from the rye industry, but also from Kentucky. So I always call it American oak because it's not all bourbon casks. Okay. Just want to know. So proportion of. In my two drops, again, in the 14, is that your advice here or three? 14 is a little older, so I would just start slow. I mean, if you like it as it is, then you don't need to add anything. Ideally, you wouldn't want to add anything to your whisky. That way, if you're traveling globally, you get the same hit every time. That's what I do with my 15. I love the body on it, too. I mean, it has structure and it's got weight to it, but it's not overpowering. And the fruit's there, but it's not overly ripe. And the spice is there, but it's not overly dry. It's got a broad mid-palate. It almost opens up in the middle, like a wine would do, and then comes back together. It's really, really interesting. And you talked about the body, but the shape of the bottle is very important as well. This, I mean, it's been specifically designed so that the bottle never rolls out from underneath the bed in front of your wife. That's the legendary story. When I added a little bit of water, I get a little more of that Christmas cakey, vanilla ex-burban. I didn't enhance the sweetness. It comes right out. Yeah. This came in line after Solera, after 18, but sort of preceded some of the other experimental projects you were doing. I think the issue that we have is you're trying to design something that's going to one, please the consumer, but also take some market share away from your competitors. But undoubtedly, some of it has taken market share away from some of our other brands. When you go through this process, because we have a few things and we're going to cover Fire & Cane here in a little bit and talk about the experimental projects that you have coming up, how many different things do you do for every single one of We've probably got between 80 and 90 live trials. About five percent will come to fruition in relation to it will be bottled. So we do have some stuff lying in the warehouses, which were experiments that we thought initially didn't work. But now that four years, five years, six years on, we had one experiment that we lost. It spent 25 years in one type of cask and we found it 20 years later. And that had been finished in something else. I can't talk too much about it because it's one of those things we might bring out. You'll have to kill us after? Yeah. Makes sense. I'll have to kill you before. But sometimes they lie around for a long time. We have a lot of old stock and we changed our computer system back in 2003 and we lost some of the tags that we had on trials. Thankfully, I wrote some of that stuff down in a book and that book was in a filing cabinet in my garage. So we found a lot of the stuff that we had previously lost and we've re-tagged them. So there's nothing quite like the written word. Amen. Are you jumping at the bit here? Well, I think I'm ready to try the next bottle of Glenfiddich here and talk about all the different cool experiments that they're doing when a lot of other single malt distillers are just putting out the same old age statements, you know. All right, so now we've got Glenfiddich's latest and greatest, Fire & Cane, which is a blend of peated and unpeated, correct, and then finished in rum or? Latin Rumka. In 2002, we started to do heavily peated Balveni. In 2003, December, we did 100,000 liters of Glenfiddich peated, heavily peated. When you say heavily peated, what's the PPM on that? Well, the malt that we bought in had a potential of 20 to 25 parts per million, but generally, during the production process, that strips out something like 5 to 10 percent. So you're left with whatever you are. Now, we were looking for consistency here. We were quite happy to be all over the shop so that in different years, you actually had different PPMs because that's just more interesting. So whereas big brands tend to look for consistency, we were trying to break that down and be a little bit more creative. So you actually had people talking about your brand for a change. And Experimental has definitely brought in a younger audience to the brand, not just because of the experiments themselves, but also the price point, because this is a pretty decent price point. This is between 40 and 50 bucks. This is a really neat whisky. It's a sweet spot. Yeah. So we've taken the Petite Whisky, we've put them into rum casks for a period of time, three to six months, and you have this lovely collision of peat and smoke, fire and cane going on in the glass. Beautiful. You're serving a number of different masters just within the facility based on the brands because you have to produce for blends, you have to produce to maintain the number one selling single malt brand in the world. And in between all of this, it's like, hmm, I think for a week we're going to take our stills out of production and we're going to do something completely different. How do you plan for that? Well, I'm not sure we did, but it was really Ian that drove that back in the days starting around 2000. And I think he had a hell of a job convincing my uncles that this was a good idea, but somebody managed it. Does that mess up the rest of the schedule then at the distillery? I mean, how much cleaning do you have to do afterwards to try to get that PD character out of the different lines? Because year one, we actually built up a stock of low wines and faints pitted. And then we took the low wines and faints out, the pitted low wines and faints, because we kept the clean low wines and faints before. Then we did a water flush, put the clean low wines and faints back in and got going again. So you lose about two days' production doing that. But it's worth it, because we were buying in pitted whiskeys from Islay to put into our blends, old blends, 12, 15, and 18. So there was a zero risk opportunity. We could produce it at the distillery cheaper than it was to buy in from Islay. So once we convinced the commercial people that financially it was a good thing to do, and once we convinced also the marketing people that it had the potential to do something at 12, 15, or 18 as a single malt, there was a zero risk. So financially we were covered off, everybody was happy to do it, and so we went and did it. We did some trials in 2000, 2001. From those trials, we gained a confidence that we could actually do this. So we started at Balvenie. We always do the trialing at Balvenie, and then we inflict the same learnings on Glenfiddich. All year or two years afterwards. We did the same with the yeast. We inflicted on Balvenie first, and then two years after that, we did Glenfiddich. We automated Balvenie in 2002, two years afterwards. We inflicted the same motivation on Glenfiddich. We always try to small the two distilleries, because this is a giant, and you got to be very, very careful not to upset what you do with the big distilleries. Well, this is gorgeous. I love the balance of this. The Fire & Cane name is so apt for it, and this balance of sweet and earthiness, I think is a really cool whiskey. Just in a little bit of background, a lot of the world knows you just because of the fact that you were allowed to actually come out and be exposed and talk about everything you're doing with grants. But what were some of the distilleries you worked at previously for DCL and Diageo? Blair Athol, Abraferly, Bladnach, Bortlech, Linkwood, Blenelgen, Blair Athol again with Dalwiny. Then I moved. So 98 was a pivotal year. I started off 98 managing Blenelgen and Linkwood. By mid-year, I was managing Dalwiny and Blair Athol. Then I signed up eventually a contract with William Grant. So end of that year, end of November, we moved to Glenfiddich, Bolvenia and Canindy. It was a crazy year. We moved house twice. It's a lot of distilleries. In 11 months. Holy cow. Well, I also worked at Linkinshie, Altmore, Penryness. Yeah, a few places. Bit of a gypsy. You just named close to a dozen distilleries that are all really wildly different in terms of styles, production styles, equipment that you're working with. What like tying factor do you bring in when you go from distillery to distillery when you're doing that? I think there's been massive changes in the technology at distilleries. I mean, everything was done by hand. You've taken temperatures by hand. You're looking at dials for temperatures. Now it's all automated. You're not as much hands-on as you wear. You're off my whisky. So there's been massive changes over the last 40 years. I think part of why I was allowed to marry was because we got into automation at an early age with Bell Scott's Whisky down at Blair Athol Distillery. So we automated there and we were able to take that knowledge into William Grant & Sons. So we automated Barrel & Binny in Glenfiddich and also Canaingby Distilleries using all of that and that knowledge that we built up over the years. So I think it was the experience of having done that that actually gave me the job. Has introducing automation to the distillery in various capacities allowed you to grow as far as, does it provide more freedom for coming up with these innovation things or does it kind of, is it harder to break that kind of system and do something I think in terms of consistency, where you need consistency in terms of efficiencies and quality, computers will deliver it the same place, the same time, every time. Whereas people, people, well, they'll decide when they're going to bring the first, second, third waters on and so on, whereas automation brings it on exactly the same time every time. So you can actually drive efficiencies. 1% in efficiency at Glenfiddich equals something like 600,000 pounds. That's like $800,000 a year. So if you can actually gain 1%, 1.5% efficiency, that will actually pay for automation. So we did a lot of work on just that and we are more efficient than we ever were and automation has been part of that. But it also frees people up to use their senses, their eyes, their ears, their nose, to sense what's going on. So people have a bigger part to play in that. And don't forget, sometimes automation breaks down. These guys still have to produce whisky. So the knowledge is required. So people who are employed by us now work at a very high level. And they also demand very good salaries because of that. But they're team players. We love them. And they're making the whisky. We are not. We've had a couple of other projects that have come up recently before Fire & Cane, the IPA, Cask Finished, and the Kiss Kiss, the double X. Yeah, the Project 20, I think, is another one of the most unsung heroes on our shelves as far as the single malt aisle goes. I think it's one of the best new single malt releases I've had in the past couple of years to the point where I have access to a lot of single malts and that was one of the only bottles we brought back with us from Scotland before it was available in the States. I mean, I think that's a beautiful whisky. We talked about the Slare briefly, the 15 year old Slare Reserve. Is the Slare process a unique process? The only one that we've ever seen in travel seems to be a Glenfiddich, but can you kind of explain the Slare process and how you use it, not just for that brand, but for other products? We now extended the Slare process. We've got four different Soleras, one for domestic market, which is a 15 year old, but we've got a Select Reserve and Vintage available in travel retail. The Select is American oak, European oak, and red wine casks. The Reserve all has to come through European oak, so lovely sherry finish, and the Vintage is all about the peated stories. So these are peated whiskeys, slightly older, and therefore a little bit more expensive. You'll see that in the packaging as well. So they're all available in travel retail. But it all kicked off with Solera back in 1998. And it was an experiment that David Stewart, who's the current malt master for Balvenie, his history, his past experiences all about Glenfiddich and Balvenie. And David was involved right back in the beginning in creating the Solera process. So they played around. The European oak had 15, American oak had 15, but also some American oak that had then spent four months in new virgin American oak to really drive up our heavy honey sweetness. So they played around with different percentages to get that balance between the three types of wood again. And that's what we have. So it was filled in 1998 and it's never been emptied since. So it's always at least half full. We then fill it up with the three ingredients. We air-rous it gently so we get a good mix of what was in there historically with the new mix. We're now, I think we're doing something like two to 250,000 nine liter cases per year of 15 year olds. So you've got your Solera Barrel, let's say for example, just the one, right? It's one large vat. It holds, it's 35,000 liters, so divided by 4.5. And those three parts go in, 50% draw, then you refill 50% just in that one vat and then that's bottled. Got it, okay. But beyond leaving the vat, they're then into Marion Tons where the whiskies get the opportunity to marry together at a molecular level for three to four months before we then bottle. Okay. Helps in the consistency and the quality of the whisky itself. So we finished up on it last night and we also had an 18. We might have had a few more. And the reason you can't advance an age statement on any of these Marion vats or Solaires, because they're above the 700 liter maximum size for Scotch whisky, correct? Marion Tons are 2000 liters, so you can't legally mature in anything greater than 700 liters. Despite the fact some whisky has been in there for 20 years now at this point. Yeah. Well, so did that, was that the lead in to the whole idea of, another thing that we tasted last night at our epic tasting was the Balvinie Ton 1509, the fifth batch of that. Which came first, the Balvinie Tons or the Solaires? Well, Solaires 20 years old. I wish I had taken some now, but we did some, we did one ton of 20 year old this year, just to celebrate the fact that, well, one, we could do it. So I asked Brian Kinsman back in January to do some 20 year old. The whole idea was to have it available for the brand ambassador conference that we had in June. They missed out on it, which is good because there was more left for me. So I slid it into one of my whisky safes and I use it for special customers now. But yeah, it's a shame we didn't take some. But I had two suitcase specials last night. Yeah, you brought some pretty outstanding whiskeys. Too late enough. We should get a bottle of Annasach. I tried the Annasach at the Enth three years ago. Then I did a 25-year-old motel behind it. The 25-year-old motel was not up to it. The Annasach really. Did you make the 25-year-old motel? I think you're finding my obvious. He also participated in creating the Annasach that we did. A good friend of ours, a friend of the podcast, Monique Houston and I were on site at Glenfiddich. We were meant to meet with Brian Kinsman. Brian was occupied that day. So Ian came in to the blending lab with us. We spent eight hours in the blending lab. Eight hours. That's a good day. Putting it together. It was mostly us grabbing samples of, what do we think about this? What do we think about this? Ian, sitting on his laptop and periodically walking in, no, no, no, no, and putting in then going back to his laptop, creating things. Then finally, at some point in time, when we were struggling with the balance between heavily shared components and pitted components, he walked in and said, listen, think about it this way, if I remember. And the greatest lesson that was learned when we created the whiskey was just how powerful, there's no one-to-one relationship between things aged in American oak, things aged in European oak. There's no one-to-one relationship between heavily shared versus bourbon age between peated and unpeated, so the amount of impact these components have is amazing in very, very small amounts, and I believe the peated component that we have in Annasach, we'll go grab a bottle and try it, the peated component in Annasach is less than 10%, yet there is a peat character that's prominent, and it was all the whiskeys that we put in were 25 years old or older, and the peated component was 30 What's that? What we used. I'm not going to do this. It's been six years. I know that you played around all day, and you kept on putting peat in. I said, look, leave the peat out until the very end. Get your blend set up first, and then edge in the peat, and do it in a way where... I mean, Johnny Walker, I'm ex Johnny Walker. Johnny Walker get it right with the amount of peat because it's a complimentary amount of peat. So when it's an overwhelming amount of peat, it's just, well, it's all over the place. So make it complimentary. Put your blend together first, and then add in the peat a little bit at a time until you get to that point where you get the right balance. So that's what we did in the last two hours. And what we ended up with was absolutely superb. I'm saying we, but they put it together, and I just drank it. And then when we had it at the end, I drank it and I was looking forward to tasting the 25 because I spent some time at Moorlach. And I tasted the 25 of Moorlach, and it wasn't anywhere up to the quality of the stuff that you guys had put together in the lab. And that really amazed me because Moorlach is one of my standards. Yeah, old Moorlach is usually outstanding stuff. So we asked if we asked permission to be able to talk about previous career when Kirstin was here, just to be able to talk about the fact that you worked at Moorlach and we really love Moorlach. It's nice that there's a family connection. Yeah, of course. Back with Annasach 25. And this, besides the fact that it shows you the palette of incredible whiskeys that you have between, that are stored between Gervan and Dufton. We might have made this one, but there's some insight into how difficult it is. The greatest lesson that was taken out of creating this was a massive amount of respect for the job that blenders have to do. Because we, for one vatting of 300 bottles, we spent eight hours. The people that do this for a living have to make eight vats in eight minutes and make those decisions correctly. And they have to be consistent because if you mess up, your customers will call you out on any sort of mistakes you make. So we did it once, that's easy. Whoo-hoo, one off, we'll never have to go back. It's like the old maxim about selling. Selling the first bottle is easy. Selling the second bottle is really when you've earned your money. And you can create this once. I can't imagine trying to go back in and try to recreate this with a whole different set of components. Yeah, it's been a few years since I tasted this actually, and I love this, just that dried fruit. Yeah. Baking spice. It's a great whiskey. And there's another one that kind of sits over look. Earthiness and kind of a tobacco note to it that I just find super pleasurable. This is cool. And that could be coming from the peat, but I think a lot of that was coming from the heavily sherry component. One thing that I like, that I'm hearing you say a couple times over, is you are building confidence and gain confidence. And I think it's nice to note that a human being isn't born confident, it's a skill that you procure over time, and a company's not inaugurated confident. And so I think with that kind of frame of mind, this allows you to, with your inventions and experimentations, build that confidence in your company, and you can see how, from that mentality, you've become the powerhouse that you are. We have this great thing, it's called the freedom to win. In other words, you're given the freedom to go and trial stuff, because that, anybody can do it. And I was given the freedom to win, the freedom to go, just go do it, take stuff from the fields, do some stuff above any. One of our family values, freedom to win. Freedom to win. Yeah, it sits across all the departments, all the areas of the business, you know, the commercial guys have the freedom to win, the marketing guys, the production guys, and if you make a mistake, so what? We gave you the chance, you know, and we're not going to come down on anyone because they tried to do something different. So I think that's one of the advantages of being in a business like ours, a family business, that, you know, it's not always about the next bottom line, it's about what are we going to do in 20, 30, 40, 50 years? This is the way that our family are looking at the business. So we generally say to ourselves, we don't, we never own the business, we're just merely custodians of the brands for the next generation. And that if you think about the business in that way, it changes a lot of the ways that we operate. So as Ian said, it's a completely different way of working and culture from some of the PLC businesses. So everyone say, well, you're in FMCG, we're sitting over in slow moving, very good seer. I think we've moved away from being this big, consistent model where you didn't change anything. Everything was kept triangular, clear glass, all those rules just blown out of it. Now you're seeing some packaging like this on it. I think we've gone full circle as a business when you talk to some of the long established employees, is that the right word? She called me old, I love it. The older, the older person. The cab on the way and she called me an old girl. Now you can see some of the things that went on even in the 90s, the 80s and 90s and I think we went from being this small boutique experimental business almost at the beginning and then we became quite corporate and then we've gone back round again into this stuff. At one point, even when I joined the business, the range of Glenfiddich was 12, 15, 18. That was it, really. There was a bit of 21 and a few vintage gas and things. But now it's a different thing altogether. The company is completely different since I joined eight years ago. Sounds like you're living in the Golden Age. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking we look pretty good at the moment, but it might have something to do with the industry and what's happening. There's a real buzz. Yeah. There's a genuine sense of excitement in the business because of the stuff that we're doing and the stuff that we know is coming out. There's a genuine buzz. We can't wait for you to see some of the stuff that you're sitting on right now. It's killing her not to be able to talk about it. Well, it's like Christmas. I have some seriously cool gifts. It's the same thing. You just want to see your kid open up the gift that you got for them. It's the same kind of feeling. That's cool. But you only get feedback from one person. You get it from hundreds of thousands. It's like double joy. It's many different languages. Good for you. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Thanks again to our special guests, Ian and Kirstin from William Grant & Sons. Join us next week on another tasting adventure. As always, I'm your host, Pat. I'm Kristen. I'm Brett. I'm Ian. I'm Kirstin. Keep tasting.