Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, joined as always with your host, Kristen. Hello. We have Pat in the room. Hey. And Roger. How you doing? Is leading us today through the hottest trends in IPA. What do we got, Rog? We're gonna talk about brute IPAs today. I'm really excited about this style. I don't know why it's getting some flack. Everybody's acting like this is the one that they're gonna beat up as being trendy and a fad and a flash in the pan, but... Right, though. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, with all the trends surrounding the category, like this is the one, but we'll see how it goes. Is this the reaction to the other trend right now? These like hyper sweet gloppy? I absolutely think so, yeah. I think this is for people that are a little tired of the really heavy, creamy, rich mouthfeel of some of the... So New England IPAs have been leaning towards this new milkshake IPA style, which I'm struggling to get behind. They're like a dessert. You shouldn't just take the term lightly that they're called milkshakes. I mean, they're putting sugar in there. They're heavy. They're hard to drink more than one. I think we're turning back to an effort to try to make beer that you can sit down and have a couple of. So as a reaction against the sweet style, we have dry, Brute means dry? Yeah. So one of the things that's really fascinating about this style is that rarely can we ever attribute a beer style to literally just one brewer. And this is the case with Brute IPAs. These were invented by Kim Sturdivant of Social Kitchen in Brewery in San Francisco. So we can track the first example of this style ever existing was at their brewery. It was a beer called Hop Champagne released on November 28th, 2017. The popularity of these and how widespread they've become. I mean, we're talking, this is all over the country and even the world now. It really spread like wildfire, which is pretty incredible. Yeah, that's pretty incredible, man. I mean, I'm not that plugged into the beer scene and I heard about, but I know I've heard about brute IPAs for, you know, at least all of 2018. So for something to get that popular that fast and reach a guy who's not paying attention to IPA trends or tries not to pay attention to IPA trends, you know, that's pretty impressive. Do you think it's because the style is so on the other side of the spectrum of IPAs that it's just so crazy even within that category that it just took off? There's a couple different theories. So one of the things with this style is that it's very effervescent. It's, you know, it harkens to people thinking of a sparkling wine. And there's massive interest right now in hard sparkling water. Be that what it is, some people are loving those. Other people are maybe curious about them. Some people might look at hard water as a total trendy thing and that they're not ready to jump on that bandwagon yet. It was soda pop two years ago. Yeah. So I think arguably, you know, some people that are criticizing these are calling them hop water. I think that depending on the execution, they can lean sort of towards that. We're actually going to try a non-alcoholic hop water today next to some of these brute IPAs for a bit of a control. Just to disappoint me further. But yeah, I think interest in seltzer water, be it alcoholic or, you know, just traditional stuff is part of it. I think, yeah, it's reactionary to the sloppier, or the sweeter IPAs. It's pretty crazy that I'm writing reviews at times where I'm evaluating an IPA and I said, you know, I'll say, you know, this is really pretty nice, but it's pretty sweet for an IPA. I mean, it's kind of bonkers to think that one of the critical aspects of IPA was how bitter they used to be. And now we've gone almost too much in the other direction. So where does this new style fall in bitterness compared to the kind of classic IPA is usually what, like 35, 45 IBU, something like that. I mean, New England is much lower, right? Right. I would say that these are definitely, there's some bitterness depending on the brewery, but still it relies more on dry hopping as opposed to traditional hot side bittering editions of hops. Let's go over some of the background on this. So like I said, Kim, since he invented this style, became bombarded by breweries asking him questions about, what's the idea behind this beer style? How do I do it? What are the secrets? So he put together his own website, kimsbruteipa.org. He literally said he couldn't field all the e-mails and phone calls. So on that, he put together his three rules of brute IPA. So you can go there and check them out, but we're gonna kind of summarize them here. So his first point is that they must be extremely dry. So ideally in the 0.0 to 0.7 Plato range. Wow, that's nothing. Yeah, so for all you beer nerds and actual brewers out there, you'll know that that's crazy low. That is barely any fermentable sugars at all left behind. That's really cool. So 0 being 0 Plato, to kind of really simplify this, is the weight of water. So this is in relation to water. So there's almost no residual sugar left in the beer. And then as far as alcohol goes, he's typically shooting somewhere between 6.3 and 7.3. This is where a lot of breweries have kind of gone off tangentially from his original vision of these. There are definitely a lot of people that end up making them stronger than that. I think part of that is that they're not realizing the increase in alcohol from the enzyme. Then we'll get to that in a second. But Kim's reminder and concern is that if you push the alcohol level above, say, 7.3, 7.5, higher alcohol in beers can give it a perceived sweetness. So the idea behind this being that they're really dry, you don't want them to get too strong. Quick question. So I took a look at the samples we're going to taste today. They're all between 6 and 7. So that kind of fits the bill. But for a regular, let's say IPA or a juicy one or whatever, what's that ABV gonna fall at generally? About what we're looking at today. So like the 6.5 range to anywhere up to about 7. I would say the current trend for the juicy stuff is the lower end of the spectrum for each style. So a double IPA will be 7.5, whereas in a traditional old school double IPA, they could be maybe 10%. So they tend to be going on the lower side, and these are kind of hitting right there in the middle. Okay, rule number two, it's supposed to be as light in color as possible. By doing this, he says he usually gets around Pilsner in color. He's using Pilsner malt, and then he's also using adjunct grains like rice, corn, and wheat. Conversely, you can also use other sugar sources like just plain dextrose or Belgian candy syrup. Again, I think this is where we've seen some divergence with a lot of the people that are brewing the style. When you start popping these today, you'll see some noticeable differences in both the color and the clarity. Then rule number three, it's kind of funny, it must be delicious. Fair enough. There have to be enough hops to achieve an IPA-like experience. The idea is it's hoppy, but he also says it can't be too bitter, and that there should be no off flavors such as diacetyl, hop oxidation, or other stale beer qualities. He points out this has actually been a challenge with this style, so brewers should be aware that there's more achieving this delicious fruit than just adding the enzyme. Beer people just love rules, huh? Yeah. Well, that's also what I find refreshing about this style, is that there are more laid out parameters to this style than we've seen in ages. I often joke that beer has become absolute wild west, there's zero rules anymore. Nobody adheres to stylistic parameters anymore. I don't mean that we should shackle people with rules, but... You just want us to get off your beer lawn? I'm definitely sounding like a super old man, but there's a downside to completely casting any kind of... If nothing else, it becomes confusing for the consumer. And as we look at IPAs now, you can't just say you like IPA, the real question is what kind of IPA do you like? There's so many different types. We're obviously, you know, talking about this one now, but the enzyme. So what's this enzyme all about? Do they have to have this enzyme added according to Kim's rules or no? Well, he doesn't say that explicitly. And I think there are some breweries that might be trying to do it without the enzyme, but in order to get that degree of fermentation in the end and achieve that level of Play-Doh, you pretty much have to use the enzyme. And the enzyme is really the impetus for this whole style coming into B. Is that enzyme used in wine to ferment to dryness? I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying that it's not, because there are a ton of things that are used that I'm not seeing. And this enzyme is amyloglucosidase? Yeah, it's a mouthful. So, brewers had been using this enzyme in the past. It's just they were typically using it for really high-gravity, big beers. So, it's somewhat innovative to think, I'll utilize this in an IPA style in order to break down any remaining starches into something that's easily digestible by the yeast, and it can ferment out to that level of extreme dryness. So let's try some, huh? All right, so we've got quite a line up here. Like I said, the thing that's kind of neat to see is that whereas a lot of the established craft breweries were hesitant to jump into the hazy game because of some concerns about shelf stability and the shelf life of the beer, people are kind of diving feet first. So we're seeing a flurry of people releasing these. And most of the IPAs that we're gonna try today are pretty much brand new to the market. So the first one here, let's start with Sierra Nevada. Well, if it's Sierra Nevada, you know it's a shelf stable style, if they're jumping in that early. I mean, they don't just put anything out that doesn't at least have some legs on it, that it's gonna last on a shelf. That's for sure. Absolutely. It's got to make it all the way to Chicago. They're not right down the street. You can't buy it the day it comes out. This looks like Highlife. Yeah, this is clear with big bubbles in the head. This beer smells and tastes like if you wanted to, like if you had to introduce a caveman to beer, and you had to be like, this is beer. This is like the most beeriest smelling and tasting beer I've had in a long time. I mean, it doesn't have the lager spice, but it still has that thin astringent slightly hoppy nose. Slightly hoppy. Something we didn't really touch on yet in describing this style. Choice of hops can really play a role. Two of the hops that brewers have really gravitated to are Nelson sauvin and Hollertal Blanc, which if you notice from their names, are famously wine-like in the aroma and flavor that they impart, so they're obviously great choices. Nelson, very hard to come by, very expensive. The Hollertal Blanc, I think you're starting to notice more breweries looking at that. For the hop choice, Kim mentioned you should try to steer clear of hops that present more of that grassy, dank kind of character and focus more on fruitiness. Things that are popular in the New England and Milkshake game are usually always those super tropical fruity hops. The Milkshake game is my favorite game. So you're saying that they're trying to stay away from the tropical and just keep it grassy or trying to give it tropical fruity notes but still have it be clean and dry. As much as they're named the Brute IPAs because they share things like the effervescence and the dryness, I think they're also modeled after the flavors and aromas of several white wines. In particular, sauvignon Blanc comes to mind, especially from some of the hops that they're using. It does lend itself a bit of a tropical citrusy stone fruit on the nose for sure. This one, as far as they said that they're using for bittering hops, experimental, so it's kind of interesting. Sierra is usually transparent, but they're playing one of those cagey, we're not going to tell you, games. For finishing, they're using Comet and Crystal. So some interesting choices, Comet is kind of famously tropical, Crystal, kind of all across the board as far as hop flavor. Let's open another one because I think- Hey, hold on a second. Kristen, do you like this? No. I got to tell you, I expected you to like this because it has this- It's a Pilsner kind of- It's totally Pilsner. Pilsner with a little more hop and a little less Eastie spice. There's something about how lean it is that I even don't- Even Pilsner itself has a touch of malt and creaminess to it, that this just sort of has a bit of a- It's not like I totally hate it. It just is such a hollow mid-palate that it's so kind of non-descript, that it's just kind of like meh. You know what I mean? It's not finished. It has this crystal malt grainy end, like a Pilsner would have. The finish, I think, is- I agree with you that it's lacking a middle. It just feels empty. It's just like it starts and there's nothing blackness, and then there's a bitter finish to it. The fruit is in the beginning and the fruit's a little bit in the end, but yeah, there's nothing in the middle. It bothers me. When you think about the grain bills that even the inventor is suggesting people use, it's easy to see how people would react that way. I mean, if we're using literally just Pilsner malt and then putting in some adjuncts that arguably are going to completely ferment out, there's almost no body there. So again, I wouldn't say that this reminds me exactly of seltzer water, but there's a minerality there that's the kind of akin to that. Also, coming from the wine side, when we talked about this yesterday, Roger, I'm a bit turned off by just the labeling here, because I get brute IPA is the category now, it's the style of beer, but then they put extra dry underneath, and so if you're What actual? Wines are either extra dry or brute. Sierra Nevada is hampered by the fact that this style is called brute IPA, and yet they want to try to convey to the consumer what the idea is behind the style, so they wrote extra dry, so obviously from a wine standpoint... That means a little bit sweet. Right. Do you ever think that wine is wrong? It's the French, actually, so take it up with them. What a dumb way to describe... Who is like, you know what we should call a little bit sweet? Extra dry, because that makes a lot of sense. There's a whole story there. Yeah. Like I said, take it up with the French. We're going to open up something local next here. This is what I think really made me wake up to the style, and it's probably the one that I've recommended more than anything else. This is Revolution's Brut Hero. Right off the bat, you'll notice that this pours darker in color. It's kind of a beautiful gold, true gold color. So it's darker than champagne. This is way fruitier, way sweeter on the nose, I think. So this one, I think really, this is where that sauvignon Blanc character comes in. Yeah, this is more Venice for sure. Yep. It's completely fermented. I mean, shelf-life wise on these, they're completely fermented out. So arguably, they're extremely clean beer. Like anything, if you're going to dry hop heavily, eventually the hop aroma and flavor is going to fade. But- Well, I mean, to your point of extremely clean, if there were anything in this, this beer does not hide anything. Yeah. I just can't. Yeah. Exactly. And apparently, one of the difficulties with using this enzyme is that it's much more prone to diacetyl formation. And for all your brewers out there, I guess if you don't let it rest long enough so that the yeast can reabsorb it, apparently some of these are turning out horribly, much to some of the breweries dismay. So- And remind me what that smells like in beer again. That is like a movie theater popcorn. So it's the same as the chosen wine. Just butter, butter, butter. I thought it displayed differently. Except sometimes in wine you want it there, and in beer it's almost always wrong. Sometimes you want it there in beer, but it's only a very couple handful of English styles. It's an acceptable type of off flavor. Well, yeah, because it's kind of like a bell curve in which that biochemical process takes place. So if you stop it at one point, you get the butter. But if you continue it all the way through its cycle, then it- Yeah, the yeast fermentation creates it. But the trick is if you leave the beer on the yeast long enough, the dead yeast will reabsorb the off flavor. The malt bill in this is pretty interesting. So it's two row barley, but then they also had some flaked oats and some caraphone barley. So that is actually going completely contrary to the Kim's rules because that's adding some body to it and some structure, which is why I think ultimately I enjoy drinking this one more. That might be a smart move on Revolution's part. I like this Revolution style. I do too. It seems, it does taste like Revolution's fingerprint to me, just with a little stylistic differences instead of a completely new product. The hops, by the way, in the Rev, they use several different hops. There's howler-tau Blanc, Crystal and Centennial and Warrior, but it really is kind of an homage to howler-tau Blanc. That's the one that shines in the predominant. So that's not one that they often use, is it? Or is that common for them? No. I think that it's something they use occasionally, but it's not something that comes up all the time. Again, it's not necessarily super readily available or cheap hop by any means, but I think it's great in this style. This one up next is Ommegang Brute. This is kind of going in the complete opposite direction. This is arguably the thinnest of these styles that I've tried. Wow, look at the color on this Ommegang. This is pale, pale straw. Super light. The uniqueness to this offering is that this one is bottle conditioned. They really want the extra mile on that, to mimicking champagne. We have some carbonation in here. It's extremely effervescent, but also the carbonation in the mouthfeel is going to be a little different since it was a product of fermentation in the bottle. It smells a lot lighter. This beer is awesome. You like this? I love this. Super effervescent. The foam, the mousse on the palate is just super aggressive. But it's not like that. Not unpleasant. It's not as sharp though. It's almost pillowy somehow. I'm just noticing it. Exactly. It's very soft. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, not aggressive. I'm just noticing it's just a lot more than the others so far. I think obviously akin to the bottle conditioning. But the nose on this is just beautiful. If you call an IPA bone dry and still maintain IPA characteristics, this is it. You guys like this, but I don't think I'm crazy about it. I think that's because it seems old world to me. What's the softer Belgian style that this reminds me of? That could be a product of bottle conditioning too. Yeah, I think there's some dual characteristics to this. It's definitely the driest that we've tried so far. There's a lingering bitterness to this. Like lemon citrus peel. People drinking this, I think one of the things that's appealing to brewers is that when they keep emphasizing that the style is super dry, it's dry because it's well fermented, not necessarily because they use bittering hops again. Those are the no-no to the juice heads. People can't handle any bitterness. So this is old school beer for grownups. It's bitter. It's grapefruit pith all the way, which I like. And it shines through because there's, I would say arguably there's almost zero body. I mean, this is, it's cool that there's a creaminess from the effervescence, but it's pretty thin. I think it's weightier than the Sierra Nevada, personally. Really? Especially on the mid-palate. I would retry it. I don't think so, personally. The hop profiles are very different, that's for sure. Sierra, I think, went too much down the herbaceous, grassy realm with their hops. Yeah, I think the Ommegang is more fruit forward. The hops that they used were Mandarina, Bavaria, Calypso, and Citra, which is a pretty cool combination. For Citra, considering they use Citra, it's not that catty. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It was good. It's 49 IBUs. Again, this is... We haven't seen anything that high in a lot. Yeah, it's obviously more bitter than the other two. One of the things that Kim talks about is clarity. It's not important if the beer is clear or not. Obviously, champagne is famously pretty beautiful to look at. I would say that most of the breweries trying this style, that's part of the appeal, but there's definitely examples that aren't. And Kim says that his will usually have a tiny bit of haze to them. This is another local offering. The next thing here, this is from Miskatonic. They are a small brewery located in Darien, Illinois. This is called Cryomancer, an homage to both their HP Lovecraft spooky element to them, and then Cryo hops are a popular new style of hops with the cryogenically treated hops that really extract a lot more of the hop pollen. So again, I think color-wise, it's about on par with Ommegang, but there's definitely a slight haze to it. Miskatonic has been kind of getting their feet wet in the beer game and trying to figure out what's resonating with people. And I think to their credit, they've made some good changes lately and they're listening to, as opposed to brewing, what they initially set out. They had a beer called Ketchpunny that was kind of style. Like a rye pale or something. So I think they went less out of the kind of home brewers who are literally designing kind of unique style melding beers to what's the beer community looking for? What's everybody talking about? Let's brew what they want. They won't abandon the beers that they like, but they're also going to start making things like hazy IPAs. They've been doing a lot of really cool IPAs with the new Nordic Easts, and they're making some really cool brews now. And they're doing some simple changes with the hop varieties or the ABV, but that's the name of the game with beer right now. Everybody wants to try something new all the time, and you can only expect so much out of brewers. That's what's frustrating to some of these brewers that have been around for years. They may have perfected a recipe for a decade, and then a kid tries and goes, whatever, boring, and what do you got for me next? Like, I'm ready to check something else in. You got a variant of this? You got something with adjuncts? Let's try the next one here. This is New Belgium. Very simply just named Brut IPA. This beer is crystal clear. This is a beautiful looking beer. Well, it's yellow, though. I mean, it's a crystal clear yellow. I think what we can learn from this example, to go back to Kim's rules, you should tend to steer more towards the new elk of hops. They need to be the fruit forward hop, not the grassy herbaceous hop. If the beer is gonna be so singularly hop focused and not have any, literally almost no malt character, you really have to be careful how you craft your variety of hops that you're showcasing. And this blend, they might have kind of overdone it a bit, I think. They went with Huel Melon, Nelson, Azaka, Citra and Amarillo. I think the Amarillo is probably what's throwing a lot of people off here, or the Citra, because both of those can have some cattiness to them. Or the Azaka. I believe it's pronounced Amarillo. It's just me. It tastes dirty. It's got that foxy kind of really dank, weird, it's got this fat tire yeast malt extract finish to it of some kind. There's something that's just sitting right on the tip of my tongue. It's almost like it forms a circle of this weird sensation. It's very interesting. Pack rings up a really good point with this. Something we haven't talked about is the yeast strain. So again, when you're talking about the building blocks of beer, yeast is something that often gets overlooked. And as far as what type of yeast, with New England IPAs, there tended to be a couple of yeast strains that everybody was jumping on. They're like, oh, the Conan yeast strain or this specific Londoner yeast strain. Most of these breweries are just using their house yeast. They're using a generically ale yeast. Some are even using the new Norwegian strains. Which could be because that's all that they have to work with, or it could be because they want to put their distinct finger print on the product. But this tastes like this has the fruity ale forward New Belgium house character to it. It totally does. That's what it is? Totally. Absolutely. That was a really good, very astute observation with this. I think that that is a huge part, again, because there's no malt character here, really. It's all just hops, and then in this case, an assertive yeast. Yeah. With this low of a malt character, you're leaving a lot of room for yeast to try to steal the spotlight. If you're using a more aggressive or assertive yeast strain, you can definitely get more yeast flavors in this beer, I think, than you intend depending on your malt bill. So if you like fat tire, you might love New Belgium. What's going to be weird is when Anchor makes one. That'll be the perfect example of that. Yeah, Anchor has a famously tangy house yeast. Like watermelon. The watermelon bread. Yeah, so the next one here is Hopewell Click Brute IPA. Hopewell brewing some great beer. A lot of people are talking about them. They're getting some deserved attention, been winning some awards. What do you guys think? It seems like it doesn't have quite as much carbonation as the others we've tasted, and it certainly doesn't have the head retention that the others have had. Yeah, it's the far least carbonated that we've had. I think up against what it's supposed to be, it has a little bit of sweetness. I agree. I'm almost, I get definitely some sweet fruitiness to it. I'm wondering if they use some adjuncts in this to keep it light. Yeah, this is just flat, kind of to me. I think the flavor is there, but without that, I just kind of lose interest. Yeah, it doesn't have, yeah, it's just not as, if this was bubblier, I think it would be a much more interesting beer. So, could be a function of just the can or who knows? Yeah. All right, so, for all the haters out there who don't like this style, a lot of them call it hop water. So, I brought some hop water. Oh, it's carbonated, carbonated hop water from? Laganitas. Laganitas. It smells like a bag of weed. Hoppy sparkling water. I mean, it smells like- I might like it. It smells like Laganitas. Oh my God, it smells like a bag of weed. And some lime Jolly Rancher, or green apple Jolly Rancher. Oh, it's totally there on the taste, that kind of green apple. Yeah. This is interesting. So this is just Laganitas LaCroix that is hop flavored, theoretically? Okay. I think it's really different. It's definitely going to have an audience. They're pushing heavily to explore making cocktails with this. So- Okay. Well, I can see that bitter component adding something to a cocktail plus it adds the fizziness, if you will, with the carbonation. They're kind of herbaceous quality. I mean, it's going to play with certain things. Yeah, it definitely would need to be in character or mixed with a group of characters to have any sort of, I think, value. To play devil's advocate, I think there is some renewed interest in having, I wouldn't necessarily, and this isn't their aim, to call it like an NA beer, but for how lacking, let's be nice, some of the NA beers are, for people that are looking for something that's reminiscent of a beer experience, but it's not alcoholic, whether you're taking a break, you're doing dryuary, whatever, it's super dank, but it's not skunky though, in an unpleasant way. So let's be fair about that. There was research a couple of years ago that said that some of the chemical compounds and organic compounds in hops actually promoted breast growth in men. So you're just drinking like breast growth extract for men. Drink up, Pat, drink up. I don't need that. They need an ab hardening beer. It's not in the one that- Yeah, where's that? Yeah. Yeah, we can send people to the moon and we can't get a beer that gives me a six pack while I drink a six pack. Come on. So I think what we saw here, that was interesting, comparatively, when you try this hot water, reminds you as seemingly thin or very light in body, some of these seem, there's still something there. You're right. They're not truly like water. Very limey. I mean, anyone who's drinking La Croix lime. Roger, when you told me this style was coming, I was worried because the thing that I always rail about, and the reason I like Imperial IPAs is because they're super hoppy, but there's also a lot of malt and alcohol to balance out the hoppiness. I was afraid that these were going to be shelled out hot water, but they're not that bad. Overall, they're really not that bad. It's kind of a refreshing style and we joke about crushability and whatever, but this springtime, summertime, I could drink these, instead of some stupid 4-point, whatever, ABV Session IPA. Yeah, armpit water Session IPA. Designed to be structurally intact and balanced and not out of whack. It's pretty good. I'm not as disappointed as I expected. No, I get where you're coming from and I think also, it's just nice because it's steering people back towards maybe having a little bit more of an open mind to some other beer styles. I'm hoping the milkshake IPA and the brute IPA, like the matter and the anti-matter, will come crushing together and we'll have balanced IPA once again. Yeah, I'm hoping. Yeah, I know. Again, these two remind us that there's some really cool new age hops out there and breweries should start maybe thinking about playing around with, I feel like too often people have access to some of these really interesting hops. Maybe it's because of the expense, but they'll bury them with a bunch of other hops, or they'll bury it in a beer where the malt takes over. These are, I think, a good reminder that if you have a hop you really believe in, it might be fun to do a single hop IPA and really highlight how neat something like hollertaub Blanc is, or maybe make a lager and dry hop it with a lot of these hop flavors, because these Brewed IPAs are very lager-esque in a way. I mean, they have some crispness and lightness that reminds us of what a lot of lagers are trying to achieve. It could be cool to open people's minds a little bit about the relevancy and the value of a well-made craft lager. Yeah, only with character and life. Right. Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the Q&A portion of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. Write to us with your questions at comments at binnys.com via email or hit us up on social at Binny's Bev on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest. Our question this week comes from at Lawfin06 on Twitter, who asks, what are the crew's bourbon of choice for an old fashioned? Since an old fashioned, the profile's a little bit sweeter. I prefer four roses because of the rye heaviness generally found in the mash mill that adds a bit of spice to it and lends the old fashioned not as sweet as I'm not a big fan of super, super sugary sweet old fashions. I go in the exact opposite direction and I choose 1792 from the Barton Distillery specifically because it's a little sweeter. It's got, it's at 93.7 proof, so it's a high enough proof where it's not getting quite watered down. I just balance out that sweetness was a little more bitters. I tend to lean toward the Fee Brothers peach bitters. I like that bit of stone fruit character. I like the orange bitters. Yeah, cool. I'm going to go more in Kristen's camp, but Rittenhouse, I like a rye, super spicy old fashion and if I want sweetness, I can get it from a squished up cherry or an orange rind. I am partial to the Burlesque bitters. With the nutmeg and clove, I love those spice flavors. I've not tried that. Cool. Very cool. Who is that from? Is it? Bitterman's. Bitterman's Burlesque. Yeah. Which is pretty similar to your classic bitters, just with more baking spice and less like weird stringency. Yeah. It's almost like a pimento drum turned into a bitters. I can't say I drink that many old fashions, to be honest. I know it's a very popular drink. Roger, imagine you're making an old fashion with egg whites and it's in a crumb. I would argue that the key to a great old fashion and what I always do is to use raw sugar. That adds a whole different level of complexity as opposed to just sweetness to your drink. As far as bourbon goes, I really like the bourbon that Pat mentioned. I also will use something that's rye forward. I really like, I think, Wild Turkey. I'll sing its praises. It's one of the most underrated brands on the shelf. People have this misconception about it. And what I like about a classic like 101, it's got a little more oomph, doesn't get lost in the cocktail. So, Wild Turkey 101, some little Demerara sugar, some that's a little darker, give you a little bit of a molasses in the finish. It's nice. There you go, Atlawfin06. The answer is whatever you like, but there's a few of our favorites. That means you have a $20 Binny's gift card. Good at the Binny's of your choice for whatever you're looking for. Make yourself a hell of an old fashioned. I think you could afford pretty much any one of these suggestions with 20 bucks. Yeah, so that's cool. Yeah. Everybody else can write their questions in at Binny's Bev on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram or email us comments at binnys.com. Thanks, Roger. Thanks for putting this together. I really enjoyed it very much. Yeah, no problem. I enjoyed it as well. I think it's going to be fun to watch how this style is received and how it takes off. Love that Ommegang. Yeah. It's cool to see the industry still kicking out new stuff. Absolutely. All right. So for our next IPA styled episode, stay tuned. Well, it'll be out next week, right? Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. We'll see you soon with something new. Until then, I'm Greg. I'm Kristen. I'm Roger. I'm Pat. Keep tasting.