Hey there, Jeff. Hey, Kristen. How are you today? I'm good. How are you? Oh, I'm good. I'm really good. Actually, today is one of my favorite days, I think. I love gin. Who doesn't? A lot of people, dude. Really? Yeah. I think it's a polarizing category. I think because, and I don't want to go back to it, because I think it sounds cliche, but it's that, you know, you had that bad moment when you were a youngster, a young, blooming fan of ethanol that kind of turned you off from gin. And I think there's a lot of misconceptions. I think you say gin, and it's like, oh, Christmas trees. Right. And that's tragic because there are so many really good gins out there. Yeah, exactly. And they're not all selling like Christmas trees. No, floral and sweet. Yeah. The permutation of botanicals that they can use means that your grandma's gin, sorry, grandma, is nothing like the gin or the choice that we have, the styles of gin like we have today. So we brought in somebody who knows gin up, down, left, right. Mr. Danny Shapiro. Hey, how are you? I'm doing well. We brought you in, actually. You've worked with us at Binny's before because you did a continuing education seminar for us, which was sold out and I believe they clapped for you, everybody at the end, like really enthusiastically. Thank you, thank you. That was a nice experience. Yeah. I'm glad I got to do it. Well, good. Well, that was a great seminar. We're going to tap into some of the things that you talked about when you visited us. Let's cover gin production. All three of us know that gin is a distillate, right? Sure. Gin is like flavored vodka. I mean, that's what the joke is. Gin is like flavored vodka. Yeah, but it depends on what the base of the distillate is, because it doesn't have to be grain. Right. What else have you seen? Well, it could be from a grape-based gin, like G-vine. It could be from any number of things, different fruits. But the starting point has to be something neutral in flavor. It doesn't have to be an NGS, not a neutral grain spirit, but it does have to be a neutral spirit. Yeah. So that means 96 percent. Yeah, distilled to 96 percent ABV. Which is like, start your car with that. Yeah, it's real rough stuff. But yeah, so on the one end of the spectrum, you have something like your compound gin, which is just neutral grain spirit and then flavoring added to it. Beyond that, you can have a hybrid, so something where flavor is infused into the spirit and then redistilled and then adding extracts at the end. Then you have the most classic style, steeping botanicals in spirit, distilling that to create something like a London dry gin. So sometimes those botanicals are steeped in the spirit itself. So touching the spirit and then being distilled. Like a big tea bag. It looks like a big bladder almost. I've seen photos of it. It's just like this huge, huge bag and then just put it in the vat and there it is. Yeah, exactly. So sometimes that's submerged in the liquid, so steeping and then sometimes it's suspended over the liquid in a basket, suspended over the spirit as distillation occurs. Then something that is less common is that all of the botanicals are distilled individually, which is pretty cool. It's pretty time-consuming and costly. Yeah, I bet. That's how, I mean, so essentially they take, they make a grain with X, Y, and Z, and then they mix them at the end. Yeah, so sometimes, like sacred gin out of the UK had individual distillates for like over 10 different botanicals, and then they were marrying them together to like get to their favorite balance. And what they would sell little kits, so you could buy the individual botanical distillates and then make your own gin at home. So if you wanted to like dial up the coriander, you could, or the juniper, you could, or the angelica, whatever the botanicals were, you could control them and create like your own kind of house blend, if you will, which is a cool idea. That sounds like fun. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like they're ahead of their time. Yeah. Okay, so that's kind of the basic definition of how you kind of get to what we're after here. So now we've got three styles of gin in front of us, two common and one uncommon. So the first one's a London Dry. The last one will be an Old Tom, but in the center we've got a Japanese gin. It's called Nikka Coffey. Is it Nikka or Nikka? I say Nikka, but I am not a Japanese pronunciation expert, so it's all good. Someone who speaks Japanese is like, uh-huh. Yeah, they hate me. They'd be right. Okay, so we're going to start with the London Dry. So we've got Sipsmith here, which I mean, I don't know. I tried not to say so many things about labels, but I really do enjoy this quite a bit. Yeah, it's a really pretty bottle. It's a waxed tip top, and it's one of the few gins that's actually distilled in London. So a lot of gins, even though they're called like London Dry, only a select few are actually coming from London. It's definitely become kind of like a mainstay across the bars. Let's define this London Dry style first, and then kind of see how to taste it. So London Dry is going to be Juniper dominant, and it's going to be dry on the palate. So there'll be like no residual sugar, which is unlike Old Tom gin where there is like a sweetness to it. And then as far as like evaluating it, it's kind of like whatever makes the most sense to you, or whatever tastes the best to your palate. And then there are gins made for specific applications, like some gins might have berry notes, and they're meant to be made with fruit syrups and in sour format cocktails. Some gins are maybe more austere, meant to be diluted and stirred in a martini format. So it can get like pretty hyper particular as Kristen kind of was touching on in the beginning of the show. Something that I really like in Sipsmith is that there's like a good amount of depth, complexity. It's not just juniper. There's more stuff to kind of round it out. It's very fruity on the palate. First the thing I tasted, I mean, I got that ginescence, that warmth through it, but then now I'm getting like pineapple, like that's, this flavor is kind of lingering. Yeah. And it's very fruity. But on the nose, I don't get a whole ton of juniper. You know what I mean? Like this does not smell like pine needles at all. No Christmas here. No, I love it. Yeah, so maybe we'd consider it like on the more restrained end of the spectrum for London dry style. So what do you put this Sipsmith in often? Sipsmith is a good candidate for a martini. It's pretty versatile though, and we're tasting a lot of fruit notes here. So I mean, I would say it could probably work in any like a gimlet or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So here we've got the the Nikka Coffey. So talking about the word coffee, coffee is the last name of the gentleman that started the continuous still, Anais Coffee. He's got a Japanese gin. He never could have seen that coming in a million years. So Japanese gins. What's I mean, what's going on with this subcategory here? Yeah, it's an emerging category. People are quite interested in it. I think that people associate bespoke ingredients and bespoke spirits with the Japanese and just like a certain attention to detail. A meticulous production method and the Nikka Coffey is no exception. It's very clean. I think that their use of some Japanese ingredients makes it stand out to me. So, there's going to be a little bit of yuzu. There's some Japanese Sancho pepper and there's a little touch of apple. This is delicious. It is. And the apple really comes through. Yeah, the pepper I can taste, you know, it's there, it was kind of moving around, but the apple like punched my tongue in the back and I was like, hey. Is there green tea in here? Do I just want that? It just kind of tastes like green tea ice cream a little bit, you know. But it does have a creamy texture to it. Like that matcha kind of feel. Exactly. That's it. Yep. And it's just, there's a hint of sweetness here that really does round it out and makes it sort of less austere. This is like the furthest thing away from gin is ahead of my head when I was younger. This has more of the juniper than I think the Sipsmith does. Yeah, there's definitely some of that like tingling, that numbing on the tongue from the juniper, like that peppery-ness. Yep. And then I really enjoy how the like kind of the floral edge of the citrus, like of the yuzu comes out. This is delicious. Thank you for turning me on to Japanese gins. I really haven't had too much experience with these yet. I've kind of seen them around, but they just haven't crossed my path. And man, I'm a fan. I'm in. This is great. And now, last but definitely not least, we have the Scofflaw Old Tom, obviously named after your bar and group, etc. This is your proprietary gin. But apart from that, we do sell it and carry it at Binny's Beverage Depot. It's made by North Shore. North Shore produces this gin. And it was a collaboration between someone who worked with us, Mandy, and Derek and Sonya from North Shore. And they came up with this gin that was an old Tom style. They tasted many iterations of it. And after that process, they came up with this, which we love. I think the most interesting component is the presence of Ozymanthus blossom. What's that? Ozymanthus blossom is used in its botanical mashpill, so in the recipe. And that was not an idea that Mandy or Derek and Sonya had at first. But it was that they had bought Ozymanthus blossom for one of their gins, one of their flagship gins back in the day. And they worked with it. They were like, this doesn't really work. But they had bought a ton of it because I guess it's cheaper to buy in bulk. They had to buy it from somewhere and take on a great quantity. So when they were working on the old Tom gin, and the notes they were hearing was like, we want it to be more floral or whatever, they were like, floral. And they remembered that they had this Ozymanthus blossom in their warehouse or in the distillery somewhere. And they made a couple versions of that and everyone was super excited about it and felt like that was kind of the missing piece. And we're left with this beautiful, elegant gin that is a slightly sweeter style, which is what Old Tom is known for. Old Tom gin actually came before London Dry Gin in the chronology of gin. But the style kind of got bastardized over time. People were adding like too much sugar. At one point it was like a cordial, it was like 25% ABV, it was like really kind of viscous and cloying. So the style kind of faded away and then eventually came back as people like looked up old cocktail recipes and saw that most of them, or a lot of them called for something that was Old Tom Gin. And so then it kind of fell back in favor or came back in vogue. This one was the, as far as I know, it was the third ever Old Tom Gin, like in the modern era. So there was Hayman's, which came from the UK. There was Ransom, which came out of Oregon and was aged in like Pinot Noir barrels. So like kind of non-traditional. And then there was ours. But nowadays there are like tens, tons, tons. Copycats, can we just say? Yeah, they definitely didn't know about us. I think it was just like a timing thing, but I just think it's cool to say. Well, it's all within that gin renaissance that gin is enjoying right now. It definitely is making a comeback. And I think that these three expressions are good examples of why it is having a renaissance and why it is kind of back at the forefront, because it is not like anything, any of your preconceived notions or any of your crappy memories of what gin was like. These kind of blow it out of the water. They're just not, they're not mean, they're not green. They're very complex, especially the Old Tom, I think. This is, and it's not because you're sitting across the table from us, this is amazing. Yep, yep. If you want to come back to gin, like the Old Tom style is a great way to start, because with a little bit of sweetness, it makes it a bit friendlier and just a little bit easier. You could reacquaint yourself with the aromatic profile of gin and sort of play with it in cocktails and then move on from there. If you want a safe bet, Old Tom really is the progressive step. This is definitely something like I could see, sitting around with some friends at home, whatever, and you've got to pull out a bottle of gin. You guys, I want to try some gin. No, it gives me a headache. I turn into a jerk when I drink gin, that sort of conversation. But then you pull this on, you're like, hey, just taste this. Trust me, taste this. Nothing like you've ever had. This will blow the doors off your perception of what gin is. And this is that. And this would be like, oh, God, that's really good. What would I, you know, mix this with? You're going to talk us through some old cocktails, kind of like right, traditional recipes for gin, and then kind of what's new. Absolutely. We're going to kind of go back through the gins that we tasted and kind of reverse order, I guess. So the first drink that we're trying is the Martinez, and the Martinez is essentially... it predated the martini, because sweet vermouth was available in the US before dry vermouth was, at least that's how the story goes. So someone took old tom gin, sweet vermouth, a little bit of maraschino liqueur, and a bit of orange bitters. So our build is an ounce and a half of Scofflaw Old Tom gin, three-quarters of an ounce of Carpano Antica, like a skinny half ounce of Luxardo Maraschino, because it's a pretty sweet ingredient, so we try to be a little cautious with it. And then Reagan's orange bitters, which we really like in this drink, because they're like a dry orange bitters, they have alcohol to them. Whereas like Fee's orange bitters are non-alcoholic, and they're a little more like... No fun. Yeah, they're a little more glycerin-y, and less fun, I guess. Yeah. So yeah, there you have it. You can hear them in our glasses. Yeah. This is really good. It's got spice to it. I mean, it's got that spiciness that it's almost... It's like cinnamon kind of, getting a little bit of that. Well, I think the Miraschino and the Carpano give it lift. You know, it gives it a little bit of acidity, so it's very refreshing. And it just kind of toes that line between bitter and sweet. I dig it. Martini. This is like one of our favorite classics to make. And then the next cocktail is going to be a Sipsmith Martini. So we have the Sipsmith gin that we discussed earlier, a little bit of Dolan Dry Vermouth, and a dash of Reagan's Orange Bitters again. And then it's garnished with like a little lemon peel expression. Some people, you know, want their martinis with a twist. Some people prefer an olive. I think it's personal preference. It's kind of lucky that I brought lemon peels in this scenario, because we kind of were talking about the fruitier notes of the gin earlier. And so this like lemon will maybe put you more on that path. Whereas, if you had an olive, it would be driving you down more toward the like vegetal savory path. I don't know. It's like a fork in the road and your twist brings you somewhere else. And the olives might take you somewhere else. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm going to take my lemon peel and wrap it around my olive and just sit at the fork. The lemon essence and the gin are, they're holding hands and they're frolicking through a juniper field. That's what's happening. That's very nice, peaceful. That sounds like a beautiful image. Right? Yep. I like to live inside your brain. Run with that. Run inside your dreams. I think this is one of the best martinis I've had. Yeah, it's good. I like it because it is, you do taste the gin, but I do like the citrus. Cool. It really changes the profile of the Sipsmith a lot. A plus, number one. Oh, and some of our people might be thinking, shaken, not stirred. Could you please elaborate on the proper way? Sure. If I had to choose a proper way, it would be stirred, but again, it's all personal preference and especially what we do is all hospitality driven. So it's whatever someone wants. We will happily make it that way. But if you just ask us, like, what's our default preparation for a martini, especially gin martini, would be stirred just like to preserve the texture of the martini and just like keep it really like silky and clean and elegant. That's why we would prefer stirring. It's like the couple of drops in your fine scotch. You know, you don't want to overwhelm it with water and ice. Yes. A little bit of moisture and cold really help. Yeah. And there are, like Danny said, there are delicate parts to spirits, even though you think that they're the strong spirit. If you shake them up really, really aggressively, you'll break apart a lot of the flavor molecules and you won't get as much of an expression than if you stir it. Bruise the spirit, as they say. Exactly. Don't do it. Bruise apples, not spirits. That's right. So the last cocktail that we have comes from a gentleman named Dan Greenbaum out of New York and it's called Remember the Alimony, which I would assume is a play on the Remember the Alamo. So whereas the first two drinks we tried were classics, this drink would be like kind of a modern take on a cocktail. The base is a split between Chinar, which is a very aggressive Amaro and Fino Sherry, and then gin is used as a modifier instead of as the base spirit like it was in the other two cocktails. Which is crazy to think of gin as the pacifier between the two strong flavors. You know what I mean? So that's kind of what was what drew me to it was something like interesting. Gin's never been a pacifier in my book. In fact, it's been the antithesis of pacification. So this drink is going to finish pretty bitter, and there are some of those like Sherry, so it's Fino Sherry, good salinity there, especially tied with the Amaro, and then the gin is kind of like kind of like brightens the drink in a way. Yeah, absolutely. It punches it up. I love this. This has been great. Okay. I really enjoyed today. And these cocktails. Remember the alimony. I think A is just good advice. I'm just going to take a sip and then we're going to talk about the Q&A, but after I take a sip. Oh, good. All right. Danny Shapiro from Scofflaw Group. We pick lucky winners every week, and if we pick them and we answer said question, then we send them a $20 gift card to Binny's Beverage Depot, where they can buy a Scofflaw Old Tom gin, which I think will just about cover it. Yeah, that will get pretty close. Pretty close. Pretty close. This comes from Chuck T up in Skokie, where it's one of my favorite stores, one of my favorite staffs, Skokie. Love that store. Those guys are fun. What up, Skokie? All right, so Chuck T from Skokie, you are the winner, and we're going to ask, Danny, what is the most obscure botanical you've ever used or seen in gin? Well, the botanist gin out of Islay in Scotland, which is a small island that is known for making really peaty scotches. Their slogan is kind of like that they make like a wild foraged gin. So they use 22 hand-forged botanicals to make their gin. One of them is bog myrtle leaves, which I would say is- Crazy. Is crazy, yeah. One of the uncommon components. On its own is probably disgusting. Right, yeah. But I would imagine it adds some sort of earthy- Yeah, or you wonder if like they just put like one bog myrtle leaf in. Just for good measure. Yeah, like just so I can say that's in there. Yeah, right, right, right. Just like sprinkle one. Like a tiny tear off the leaf. I didn't even know that a bog myrtle leaf existed in the world until just now, so. Sounds like Dutch to me. I have no idea. Yeah. So Chuck T, bog myrtle leaves in the botanist gin out of Islay in Scotland. For sure. Cool. It's got to be it. Yeah. Well, thanks, ladies and gentlemen. I hope that you've enjoyed our. Well, I think I'm going to go out on a very short limb here and call this Gin Part One. We're not done. Because gin is a big basketball. We should definitely get back to this. I feel like we could just kind of, yeah, there's so much more to say. I have so many more questions. More cocktails to try. More cocktails to try. My job. My job sucks. Tough life to live. So thank you, Danny Shapiro from Scofflaw for coming in. Thank you for having me. We'll see you hopefully for continuing education again. Down the pipeline, that'd be good. As always, I am Kristen Ellis, your esteemed host. Jeff. Hey. Thank you. No, thank you. No, it was really good. It was fun. This is fun. I mean, you said we kind of broke through the mold of gin being that one cocktail your uncle drinks when he punches someone to being the cocktail or the spirit that is full of flavor and there's much more complexity than anybody I think really Yes. Yeah. My uncle cries. He doesn't punch. He cries. Yeah, you know, whatever. I got a weird uncle. All right. Don't we all know? His name Bob. Actually, I do have an uncle Bob. Everyone's got an uncle Bob. Me and me is weird. All right. Until next time, keep tasting.