Sometimes there are Roger episodes, and sometimes there's Kristen episodes, and sometimes there are Pat episodes. This is a Greg episode. Yeah, Greg episode. Which means it's going to be a mess. It means I'm going to break down laughing, and everybody else is going to get mad about it. Welcome back to another episode of Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. I'm Greg, I do communications at Binny's. Pat Brophy, Director of Spirits Purchasing. Roger Adamson, I do beer marketing and education. My name is Kristen Marie Ellis, I do wine education, events, a little bit of marketing. All right, guys, we're gonna start this one off with the Q&A segment first. Okay, great. And then from there, we're gonna have a lot of fun, and then after that, we got some news. So stick around to the end for some news. So I got a call from a listener, and we're gonna call it the Q&A, even though it's a coworker, so we're not gonna give him $20. So he calls me up one day, and he goes, hey, I've been listening to it a lot lately, and I like it. But he goes, what does soft and round mean? Right? Buddy, that's like the most fundamental tasting note that there possibly is. He's like, well, maybe you should cover some of those basics. So this whole episode is dedicated, covering the basics, descriptors, and we have the whole team on because we wanna talk about descriptors in wine, descriptors in beer, spirits. There's some overlap, there's some not overlap. And then we're gonna get around to listeners who wrote in the craziest descriptors that they've seen, and we're gonna explain them. Okay. Yeah, or any tasting note of DRC ever. The most hyperbolic crap I've ever seen. It's like the Tears of jesus, this vintage again, under cork. It's ridiculous. So how do you define soft and round? Actually, let's put a frame on the conversation. I had a friend in the industry once who described the hardest question that a customer can ask you. They're holding two bottles of Merlot or whatever. And they're like, what's the difference between this and this? And it's so hard to quantify. And that ultimately is the role of the reviewer, of the salesperson, and in describing these tiny shades of difference between things in order to really describe the experience. And he likened it to describing the difference between a naval orange and a mandarin orange. You immediately know the difference in your head between those two flavors, but it's really hard to use words in the English language to describe the difference. Yes. Arrest my case. So, okay, so are we talking about round? I mean... Soft and round. What does that even mean? So, for wine, it involves two, really three things. First, it's acidity, and second, it's tannin, right? So, it's the nature of the acidity. The lower the acid generally will say the softer the wine. And not only the lower in tannin, the softer the wine, but also the nature of the tannins, the riper the black grapes become, the tannins become more lush and softer. So, they can be quantitatively, relatively high, but be a softer texture. Makes sense? So, it could have to do with fruit ripeness, too. It could have to do with residual sugar. It could have to do with flavors. Well, since the body is the third thing, so the fuller it is, the weightier it is, sometimes it can feel rounder. I will say, when I'm describing a spirit is soft and round, that's generally something to me that is medium to fuller bodied, where it's got a coating and some weight on the tongue, and it's generally not like hot or lean. It's just kind of soft, a little sweet. It just kind of rolls back. Like candy flavors work in spirits, like caramel often. When you think of a bourbon, especially like a soft ground bourbon, you immediately think like it's going to be... Kristen, I were talking about this with nougat yesterday, where I said we were tasting some single barrels from Journeyman, and I said, I got a lot of vanilla nougat on this. And somebody we were tasting with once had no idea what nougat was or something. Yeah. It just was crazy to me. They didn't know. Hops play such a part, and especially the focus of beer right now, so many things are hop forward. IPA driven, depending on when you introduce hops into the brewing process. More classically, when they're introduced in the boiling process, it extracts bitterness. So if you're talking about beer being soft, and especially the round aspect of it, I would say the softness would point to a lack of bitterness. Roundness would be the level of balance between hops and malt in the beer. So the malt providing the sweetness. And in these new IPA styles, they're advertising like the use of oats. I was going to say for me, soft beer, when you guys tell me what it's fermented with, or the base grain, it's always got wheat. When I get those weeded styles of whatever it is, that's what creates that soft creaminess for me. Yeah, wheat and oats. Yeah, wheat and oats are going to make a soft kind of just... Like WhoGarden is the softest beer I can think of. Yeah, well, a lot of the stouts, like oatmeal stouts are really pillowy soft. And yeah, the New England style of IPAs now, it's very popular. Yeah, the sloppy IPAs are pretty soft. So sloppy tasting term, is it real? Is it technical? Sloppy is just me being... You being you. Having an old man yells at cloud moments with a new fad style of beer. And yes, it's beyond fad now. It's a style. I'm so entrenched in the hate at this point that I can't admit I'm wrong, even though I know I kind of am, I just have to keep hating. A related topic. He's so committed to the hate. A related topic and a term that was contested. People don't use it as much anymore, but it was definitely brought about by the macros, this idea of drinkability. Yes. I actually like that term because of the market right now, where there's these sloppy beers where they might taste amazingly rich and decadent and it's fun to drink like two ounces of them. But I'll often use that term about drinkability, where a beer might be amazing to drink one sip of it. But if it comes down to would you enjoy a glass of this? Too much. I don't know where we've gone off the rails with beers that are almost not drinkable in any real sense. They can be fun to try a taste. That is such a subjective term, like balanced in wine. It's such a subjective thing. And what you perceive as balance is not what I perceive as balance. Well, it's what is balanced with what in wine? because many people always default to acid and tannin, right? Those are the things they're taught first, and those are the things that need to be in balance. But it's also alcohol integration. It's also intensity, fruit flavor, and that can be balanced with alcohol or acid as well. So maybe people are using it as a shorthand for a certain style. And if something is truly balanced, you can have a really rich wine as long as it has the acidity and then the alcohol and all the structure, the tannins, that it still is massive, but still balanced. Kind of like a beer or a spirit. Like Raj is talking about drinkable. I've had whiskey that is drinkable, you know? Windsor Canadian, baby. The hams of whiskey, basically. The hams of crap whiskey. Or like the example that I always fall back to on beer is when you have a tremendous amount of hops, but also a tremendous amount of grains so that you end up with something that's relatively balanced, but it's also extreme. But even if it's balanced, doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that you'd want to have more than one of them. You can have an equilibrium of hops and malt in a massive 10% alcohol, double IPA. American barley wine. Yeah. But still, you want a glass and that's plenty. People, I think, misuse or at least overuse the term session ability. because a lot of times, originally, the point is this idea of, it should be low ABV because there's a component of not getting overly intoxicated. Now, session ability is often used as just in its balance and I can drink a couple of them. Right. That term used to carry meaning. It used to be, you know, I could drink 12. Now it means I can drink three. I can drink 12 and still balance. That's what that's about. All right, let's take a step back. Let's talk about just tasting and tasting notes. Trying to describe an experience that's greater than just flavors. So you're talking about tannin and acidity. Novice wine tasters tend to focus on the obvious flavors, and they miss out on things like mouthfeel. How about just even tannins? We should probably go back and use some descriptors for people that don't know. So the whole acid tannin wine thing has always kind of confused me, and I always feel like an idiot for not tasting wine the way I read about how I should taste wine. Well, that's because you are an idiot. Yeah, that's true. I'm going to just sit here and cry into my pants. Well, so what things do you read, Pat, or Roger? I know you don't maybe fall in the same confused track, but clearing up tannin, like what's not, what's unclear? How would you describe tannins in general? I know probably the most common way I've heard it described it, I think you need to find ways to where the sensation and the flavor would appeal to the broadest audience ever. So usually I hear it described as like tea, black tea that's been steeped for too long. So here's the basis. Tannin, for the most part, is not a flavor. So don't think of tannin as a flavor. Tannin is a tactile sensation that gives red wine structure. Okay, I was on the right track with that then. A red wine without tannin and acid would be like drinking a Coca-Cola without carbonation. It gives it that lift, right? It would fall flat and flabby without. That's more for really acidity, but you can kind of think of tannin in the same light. So think of it as a tactile sensation. Now you quantify them, low, medium, high, and then you can describe the way in which the texture of the tannin feels. Normally, this is done through two ways. They're long or they're short, right? Short tannins are going to feel more, you can akin those to a chalky feel. Think about a fine grain sand versus long, which would be more like pebbles, okay? And after some time, you can feel the grip between your teeth and your front lip. They'll feel a little bit shorter or they'll feel longer. Or you can say kind of softer grain or heavier grain, you know what I mean? Kind of maybe how you would describe a sandpaper. Okay. You know what I mean? As a coarse or lesser more coarse. Yeah, you measure the grit of the sandpaper. Exactly, so that's it. And then so they can be chalky, they can be more grippy, and they can also add a drying effect, right? So they can be drying as well. So first it's the quantification, low, medium, high. How much is your lip gripping to your teeth? And then what's the texture therein? Think about sandpaper. Acidity and tannin, metaphorically in my head, like the skeleton and then the other flavors exist on the skeleton, the frame holds up the whole experience. Right, I just want you guys to kind of just think of tannin as an overall tactile sensation, not a flavor for simplicity. So Kristen, do you use like a flavor wheel or metaphorically or anything like that? Yeah, well, I think of it in terms of cluster. So what I'm tasting, and we're talking about, let's say another word that's very common in beer and spirits and wine is complexity. In terms of wine, it's breaking down aromas into three basic categories. One, it's primary aromas. Primary aromas are a result that the fact of that wine is a fermented beverage. So when we're walking around a vineyard and we pull Pinot off of a vine, it doesn't taste like strawberries and raspberries and cranberries, right? It's the magical fungus of yeast that produces primary aromas. It's a fermented food. Secondary aromas are the aromas as a result of wine making. Did you put the wine in oak is probably the most obvious example. So was it aged oxidatively or new oak to impart an oak flavor? And then tertiary aromas are the aromas of extended bottle age. So Pinot Noir starts off smelling like strawberries, but then smells like barnyard. You know, it's a nice way to say it smells like sh** after 15 years in the bottle, right? No, but I'm saying it smells like mushrooms, forest floor. Those are tertiary, more savory, earthy aromatics. So I think of it in terms of those clusters. So you start there, and then from there you can blow out all these different categories of notes that you're looking for. So if it's primary, is it red fruit, black fruit, tree fruit, citrus fruit, herbaceous, vegetal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the way on down. If it's secondary, is it oak, is it malolactic fermentation, is it lea stirring, like what can we do in the winery that's gonna give this aroma, and then tertiary, how old is it? And then the other possible category here is flaws. And then flaws. On top of all that other stuff. But hopefully we're not. When I'm making a tasting note, once I smell flaw, then it's over, because what's the point? Yeah. The wine's off. When you're talking about aging wine, it just reminded me of something that sadly you rarely see anymore in the beer market today. Bottle conditioning. Yes. Where you're packaging the beer with live active yeast. Which is so cool to me. I love that. I do too. Sadly, there's very few examples now. There's still a hold off with some of the Belgian beers. There's quite a few Belgian ales that are still packaged that way. That type of carbonation that occurs in the bottle naturally, as opposed to being forced carbonated, which is what most beer is. Typically, the bubble structure in that is much tinier, more champagne-like, so that can produce a softer beer flavor. And mouthfeel too. You don't get a lot of tertiary notes in whiskeys. Couldn't one argue that it's all tertiary? If tertiary is by, well, let me finish, by definition, aromas as a result of extended age. You don't think the barrel is part of production? If you have, yeah, but if you have, yeah, but the barrel gives the vanilla, da, da, da. But if you have a whisky in the barrel for 25, 30 years, like how do you not have some tertiary aromas? Yeah, I mean, there's extractive aging and oxidative aging. And so, you know, as a whisky is aging, you are pulling certain components out of it and adding components to it. So that's why, you know, it goes on this journey of ups and downs. Where even though you might end up with a Buffalo Trace that tastes great at eight years old, it might, that same whisky could taste bad at four, but then great at five and then a little worse at six and, you know, and things are constantly kind of coming and going, so to speak. Yeah, okay. But on the tertiary thing, though, like, yes, when a spirit is packaged, like, yeah, it's done, it's not changing. Long term, though, you still have oxidation going on. A pet peeve of mine is when reviews get way too specific. But another pet peeve of mine is when reviews are super big. And you listed a bunch of categories like red fruit, you know, but like, what is a red fruit? There's so many things that could qualify there. Raspberrys don't taste like cherries. Yeah, I like to use those vagaries and keep those for new wine tasters because the number one thing people think when they're coming to wine newly is they can't describe what's in it. And I say, wine is food. If you can tell me what a cheeseburger tastes like, then you can tell me what this cabernet smells and tastes like. You just have to have as much cabernet as you have had pizza, you know, or cheeseburgers. It just comes with time, man. You've been eating cheeseburgers since straight out of the gate, dude. Like, that's what it's all about. How would you describe a cheeseburger? I would just be like, it tastes like a cheeseburger. Yeah, but you can describe the bun and the patty and the tomato and the cheese individually. This is the same thing I can pull out various clusters like we just talked about and talk about them. Yeah, the snozbeers taste like snozbeers. Exactly, right. Especially in the back of a cop car, you know. The richness of something like cheese versus the sharpness of something like mustard or pickles. Exactly. Acidity, sweet. It just comes out the training, training your brain. just like dogs are trained to smell, you know, whatever, you can do that yourself. Taste, take notes, repeat. Yeah, good point. And taste with people who taste a lot. So you get the opportunity to taste more. And so you can pick up on what they're doing and go from there. Some people, they get upset when you're tasting in a group and they're just like, don't say anything, don't influence me. Well, I kind of see it another way. It's like, no, I don't mind being influenced. I'm not taking a fricking exam. Who cares? If you smell something, then that might make me smell that wine. And then all of a sudden, I built another neurosynaptic connection in my brain that's going to allow me to remember that aroma. And now I could do that later on. Bam! Science on the Barrel the Bottle podcast. Yeah, right. So a subset of red fruit, another one that I think is criminally overused that needs greater specificity is mineral. We'll get into pet peeves later, but mineral is such a vague term, and it could mean so many different things that you really have to be specific there. Like, what's a mineral? There's metals, there's like salt is a mineral, like pretty much any organically occurring compound. But it's just kind of like fruit is so vague. But you can say this wine is very fruity or fruit forward. So you can, you can, in these vagaries, I think that there are certain gives that you can kind of allow people. plus, sometimes once you start getting more specific, you can very easily get this error of sounding pretentious and sounding ridiculous. So with minerality, I've heard people describe it as like wet, wet sidewalk. Yes. Which that makes a lot of sense. But that's a really specific thing. Yeah, but it carries like negative connotations then. I mean, it might smell like wet sidewalk in a pleasant way, but then odds are if a reader reads that, they're going to go, that doesn't sound pleasant. I mean, at the end of the day, we're in the business of recommending things that we think people should buy. A beer one is dank, because dank could mean a few things, and some of them are negative. Dank means weed to me. But dank could mean my basement. Yes, it could. It also could. So here's a classic example that is caddy. American hops for years weren't very sought after or respected because several hops have a higher percentage of literally the exact same chemical that's in cat urine. So if you happen to have had cats or been around cats and you know that cat urine smell, there's certain beers that are really hop forward that people despise because they think this just smells like cat piss and they're not wrong is what's crazy. So there are beers that I'll be tasting them and say, oh wow, this is caddy. But I'm never going to write in the review that it's caddy because some people are going to drink it and they won't make that connection whatsoever. So you have to find and have work arounds and that cat urine smell might sometimes gets described as foxy to make it seem a little more pleasant. But that's a different thing altogether. So I would say just omit it. If the people pull up the cat piss smell and they're just like, oh, it smells like mittens. Sometimes there's flavors adjacent to. So usually if something's catty, typically a lot of those hops also have a vegetal chivey, oniony, garlicky kind of flavor. So you highlight that and you again, pull back on the specificity, you're not going to necessarily say it's catty, but it's very green, it has that oniony, chivey kind of flavor. Do we have to bleep cat piss? Oh, we do? Is bashful a wine term? It probably is, but that is exactly the kind of insufferable bullsh** that makes me hate wine. You're trying to give people a sense. It's not a term, you feel. No? I thought it would be like restrained. I had a tasting group at my house, and I went on the internet, and I looked up just crazy hyperbolic, jokey tasting notes, and I wrote a bunch. And my two favorites, because I had them on notes under the desk, and then nobody could see. So I was like, oh man, it's like, just like super, just like bashful pineapple. And one of our wine managers was like, looks at me, just like WTF, like just gave me, just looked across the table, like what the hell are you talking about? So I'm like, so I kept it up, and then another wine came through, and I was like, it's kind of, it's olive, right? And they're like, yeah. And I go, it's like, it starts like Kalamata olive, but like it finishes pitted Kalamata olive. Don't you think you guys? And that's when the jig was up, and they're just like, what the hell are you talking about, Ellis? And I'm like, kidding. It's jokes. So no. Bachel is absolutely a tasting word. Pineapple can't be bachel. It's a bullsh** tasting word, and Pat's absolutely right. Anybody uses it, it's a dumbass. Well, yeah, like my most hated term I've ever heard anyone describe a wine about was calling it directionless. And I just wanted to just like take them out back and beat them with a garden hose. Like that is absurd. What does that even mean? It goes one direction down my throat. No, it's the opposite of streamlined. And you know what? A sleek streamlined wine tastes like. I took it as being kind of flabby and unstructured. Yeah, so you know what they're talking about. I know what they're talking about, but don't put it in such a pretentious s**tty way. One time I used the word zippy, and my wine manager was like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, zippy, the customer knew what I was talking about. You can be mad at me, but she got it, and I sold her that bottle of Pinot Grigio. That brings up a good point, is that sometimes there's these terms that are used all the time by the consumer that we have to kind of unwrap and figure out, what does that mean? I think bite is one of the most common things. You hear that a lot with whiskey. You hear it sometimes with... So what's bite with spirits? Is that alcohol or is that flavor? Is that intense flavor? What's bite? I usually take it to mean kind of alcohol, ethyl alcohol burn. Disjointed ethanol? Yeah. Yes, I also think though, that was a very common descriptor once rye whiskey started to gain traction again. Spice. So spice, I think. because when I picture bite, it's something that lingers and stays with you. The way usually it's used with beer, when people describe a beer as having a big, like a long bite to it, is hot bitterness. So hot bitterness in the traditional sense can linger. I mean, the old school IPAs, some of them, you drink it and it stays on your tongue for a couple minutes afterwards, you still taste that bitterness. We've moved so far in the opposite direction nowadays. By the way, everybody, Roger takes time to point out new bitter beers to me because that's what I'm looking for. He always tells me, nobody's going to buy this, but you're going to love it. Tongue-thrashing bitterness. Yep, the opposite of bite is smooth. It kills me when somebody asks for a smooth wine. Smooth and whiskey I always interpret as low alcohol. I will say that. Yeah, I always. It's sweeter, rounder, like we said before. Last structure, Basil Hayden. Smooth can be tough. Here's what I don't, since I might as well bitch. Well, this is the Pet Peeve segment right here. When they describe a product using one of the key ingredients of said product, and sometimes it makes sense, and other times, well, like when you call a wine, grapey. Grapes that smell like grapes, yeah. Do people really say grapey? Yeah, because like Moscato, it smells like white grapes, you know, like fruit salad, but it smells like white grapes. And right now, the gloves are coming off. Corn pudding. Really? Oh, yeah. You're going to criticize bourbon for smelling like corn? No, it's not criticized at all. Corn pudding is corn casserole, it's not just corn. It is baked, creamed. It's baked with creamy, yes, yes, bready kind of smell to it, spice. I just love how he's like, pudding. Pudding. Pudding. We got an editor's note on a tasting note this last week. Like, can we please put a G on pudding? No, no. I know, I know. It's an apostrophe. If it needed a G, it would have a G. I don't send things in that need editing. Also, something I think we run into quite a bit is if, with specificity of things, one example that I'm going to give that I run into all the time, some people who rate beer right about it, talk about not speaking in generalizations. So if you say tropical, you better say what kind of tropical fruit you're talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm saying with the red fruit or the mineral. So I try to do that to some degree, but if I want to get real specific, I happen to really be into different kinds of tropical fruit. I'm aware that not a lot of people have that as a hobby. I seek out weird tropical fruit. So when I say that something tastes like jackfruit or lychee or rambutan, I worry that people are going to go, what? It doesn't resonate with 95 percent of the audience. That also brings me to a pause, but sometimes it literally tastes exactly like something. Jackfruit is a perfect example. We've talked about jackfruit. It tastes like juicy. Juicy fruit gum is thought to have been labeled after that flavor. Now people are finally starting to know jackfruit. They're selling it in the stores, but it's a really unique flavor, which also combines some other tropical fruit components to it. I absolutely agree with that. And I was going to say, when you're talking about tasting and starting with generalities and getting more specific, that makes a lot of sense, but it's also a search. And sometimes you taste or smell something that is so specific. I remember trying a shot nymph to pop, and it was one of the first great ones that I ever had. And it had like an iron-steel-y quality that specifically invoked that metal rail that's like 30 years old on a concrete flight of stairs in a playground. And it seems so pretentious to say that, but like that is from my childhood, and then it's exactly what it invoked. What it smelled like, yeah, right. I've had a lot of like other, like lighter ones that have this spicy quality that is the specific spice of this venison jerky or summer sausage that my dad made when I was a kid. Like that exact combination. Yeah, but dude, what all you're saying in, poorly is, no kidding, all you're saying is everybody has their olfactory baggage, right? I will fight you, Ellis. I know you will. Everybody has what is called olfactory baggage, man. Yeah, exactly. And so you smelled and it brings it back and it's all good, you know? And so you're not pretentious if you are describing your own personal experience. It's when you start pandering, and I think that people can discern the difference versus saying this smells like something that I recognize and, you know, I know it sounds funny, but it's from my childhood, this. And most people can harken back to a memory that's similar and then they can relate. It's when you start to get hyperbolic and then you're like, get out of here. When you taste with someone that you start to pick up on, they use that same note frequently, then you know it's a shorthand for something else and it comes off as lazy. I taste pretty regularly with someone who uses the phrase, it's like licking an ashtray. Nobody has ever licked an ashtray. Stop saying that. What's his name? I bet he's licked an ashtray. Yeah, so, I mean, one of my colleagues tends to put... He's lost a bet at some point. I have a feeling. Fair enough, fair enough. But a lot of Amidor Zin suddenly tastes like that. Yeah, but do you know what wine smells like? Wet ashtray to me is Carmonair. Some versions of Carmonair, like when you get outside on someone's porch in college, and you had the ashtray that was full, that like sat out over the various storms. That's what that wine smells like to me. So there I am, invoking a memory. You guys can relate. You all smell the s***y ashtray. But as an example, could I say that to make somebody smell, make somebody feel bad? It really, you're not doing a bad thing by invoking those memories and saying the wine smells that way. I would say it's got a wet stony smoke. But it's not smoke, it's ashes. It's ashes. It's ashes. Okay. I had a wine that smelled like the produce section in a grocery store. I was like, this smells like standing right in front of the brussels sprout section. It's the plastic, it's the produce, it's the store, it's everything. The air that comes after the sprayers. Yeah, exactly. It was just like, this is it and I don't want this wine. I don't want to be in that section as long as I have to be. I don't want to drink this wine. I hate vegetables too. With a lot of hop forward beers, especially nowadays where everything's about dry hopping, where the hop essentially isn't added during the hot side, it's not getting cooked at all. It's just being essentially steeped in the beer. You get these really green characteristics that I often refer to as florist shop. So it's like going into a flower store, and it makes sense because you're looking at the organic matter that is hops. Yes. And it's so pronounced and especially certain varieties, Laurel hops of new brands, stone brewing is all about it. They help make that hop. And I just can't get past how much it's like just jamming your face into a bouquet of flowers. It's too much. Too floral. For me, yeah. Yeah, too floral is tough. That's a tough one. One other thing that I'll say is, so many of the things I write about right now are IPAs, and a lot of the hops now are very fruit forward. They're less about just piney or citrusy like they used to be. It's a lot of tropical fruits. One of the things we run into with that and the fact that breweries are starting to add a lot of fruit to beers, is if you say something tastes like raspberry, what kind of raspberry? Does it taste like you're eating fresh raspberries? Does it taste like raspberry jam? Does it taste like raspberry liqueur? The other reason this podcast is on my mind is because I said tight raspberry, and you guys said, what the hell is tight raspberry? It's underripe, light pink raspberry that hasn't reached shook. I didn't say it very well, but yeah. That's why we asked you what the hell you were talking about. You know exactly the words. But if you said underripe, then everyone immediately knows. Well, I'm not that good with vocabulary. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. Or like, you know, I like to say. I have aphasia sometimes. I like to say, you know, freshly cut and then a type of fruit. So think of peaches as a great example. That's great with fruit. It's bad with grass. Yeah, that's true. But yeah, freshly cut peach is obviously so much different than like peach from a can. Peach skin. Peach juice, peach nectar. See, the juice is one description I use a lot. I'm like, is it cherry or is it cherry juice? because juicy is like a whole other thing. And jam. And it's just encouraging people to just think a little bit more deeply about what they're smelling. And eventually it helps them build that ability to describe the wine, spirit, beer, whatever. And adds to their appreciation, adds to their enjoyment. And the point of making a tasting note is to sit down with that particular beverage and kind of put everything else out of it and focus on what it's telling you in the glass. And to help you build those descriptors. Two really common mistakes that we talk about. One, always open your mouth when you're tasting. Yes. We're taught to not sit gaped drawed at any given moment. Yeah. So when you're smelling and you're, because again, like at least 75% of taste is really smell. And then secondly, in order to get your nose nice and close to that liquid, make sure that you're drinking things out of a glass. And this is hopefully doesn't apply as much for whiskey and wine, but for beer, pour. That's why cans are so popular now. If you're going to pour it into a glass, which is what you should be doing in the first place, pour it into glassware so that you can release the aromas when you're pouring it. And then it's much easier to smell and appreciate the aromas when you're actually drinking it. Can we cut this with Pearl Jam's release, please? So I was going to use rock candy again, because I already paid the $1.29. One other... Wait, wait, wait, wait, I have one more question for Pat. Pat, Pat, is brooding a true wine word? I've heard it used in wine before. I am probably guilty of using it once or twice. Yes, it is true. What does it mean? Heavy, contemplative. Contemplative. That's not what it, doesn't mean the wine. It means that it's heavy and more masculine. It's gonna be more structured, more tannic, fuller bodied, that kind of thing. Closed down. The first time I heard brooding was before my true wine career started, years back. And I'm at this Brunello Winery in Italy, and this woman's like, it's duh, and brooding. And I just went, I look at my dad and I was like, what the hell is this woman talking about? I just picture a bottle of Brunello sulking in the corner. It's the finger. It's got its chin on its fist. Brooding, I was like, what an a**hole. But actually, I'm the a**hole, because it really means that the wine is just quite structured and quite a bigger style. But brooding has negative connotations, is it not? Not in wine tasting. It just means it's a bigger, broody, they should say broody-ish, like big, you know, kind of, but- Brute and brood are two different words. I know, I know. That's what I'm saying. I don't think brooding, but that's what it, hey, I don't make it, I don't make it, man. So more masculine. More masculine, deeper, heavier. So, yeah, that's, lightning round of listeners submitted descriptors. Yeah, cool. And we're going to try succinctly to describe what they taste like. Band-Aid, medicinal iodine-y. Yes. And rubber. Rubber, rubber, plasticky, yeah. I had somebody tell me that Band-Aid reminded them of scab. I'm like, no, man, that's something else. Gross, that's gross. That's gross. Open up your medicine cabinet again. It's all smell. Yeah, or smell an old person. Durian. Oh, boy. I've heard this. I've never had it. I've never smelled it. It's the Indonesian fruit that's supposed to smell like rotting flesh, and it's banned from a lot of public areas. No, rotting onions. Rotting onions? I think flesh is a little more... I prefer flesh. Why does this exist? Why is this? It's a tropical fruit, because it supposedly tastes great. It just smells like crap, and it's banned from... You can't take it on public transportation and stuff over there. Like that stinky French cheese? Yeah. I have no experience with durian. I would like to try it at some point. No, you make it like I never want to ever be confronted with it. Part of the problem with those is that trying to get some of these really exotic fruits here in the condition that they should be eaten is challenging. Especially when they smell like poop. They're picking them like they're not ripe. They're only really applicable to people who've been in the places. You can buy durian. It's usually frozen. Can we change your Instagram handle to the Fruit King? Please do. I believe the aspect of when something's actually properly ripened and then you get to try it, it's a whole different experience. Would you say it's the malort of tropical fruits? Yes, I would for sure. Hell of a lightning round. Horse blanket. I love this one. That's from a wild yeast called Britannomyces. Britannomyces, woo. It is literally like picture back, you talk about taste memory earlier, like one of those horrible slavish pony rides that like travels around the fairs or carnivals or whatnot. And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, this is cool. And then when you're an adult, you're like, holy s**t, is that the saddest thing I've ever seen? But it is that literally, if you've ever gone to a horse farm or ridden a horse before, the blanket that goes under the saddle has this combination of horse hair and leather and wool and sweat. A little bit of poop, some dusty dirt. Yep, the barnyard. dusty, dirty barnyard thing too, like straw, like wet straw. Yeah, that's it. Love that. All right. Poached pear. I like this one. Poached in what? because it's only for desserts, poached in wine, right? So, yeah. Really? Yeah. Nobody poaches a pear in water. That's dumb. Can't you poach a pear in a brandy? Fine. So poached in brandy, that's my go-ahead. No, then it would be like flambéed. Brandy would ignite. So anyway. You're poaching it. Yeah. In a red wine, because they look pretty then. They absorb the wine. So a poached pear is a cooked pear, so it's a little blanched. I've never had a poached pear. I thought I had, but now I'm full of it. So it's just cooked pear. So the sugars get a little caramelized, and that's it. Precisely, but it soaks up the wine, so it's got the cooked pear. Think of like a pear tart, but then in with wine aroma. So it's like a vinous pear tart. They look awesome. Dirty diaper. Oh boy. Why everyone knows what this smells like. I get diaper, but no one ever says dirty diaper. They want to know why it occurs? I mean, I don't think we need to explain what that smells like. Savory. Yeah, right. Savory. Ramen. Steak. Yeah, things that aren't sweet. They're more salty in umami. Yeah, savory. Yeah, umami. But how about the like... Umami itself is pretty puzzling to an outside. Umami itself is nebulous in puzzling, yeah. It's not. So meaty, not sweet, not salty. But not herbal. No, it's got some salty to it, for sure. A little bit of salty, a little bit of meaty, a little bit of herbal. Umami is deliciousness. It's MSG. It's like, it's all the encompassing flavors kind of wrapped into wine, but it's not too sweet. It's like the reason McDonald's Quarter Pounder works so well. It's like all the things together. Savory, I often associate in beer with herbaceous hops. They have a savory character to them. Savory to me means like oregano and rosemary. Sure, yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't expect that. It's a difference between a tomato raw and a tomato that's stewed. Stewed tomato or roasted tomato is umami. A mushroom that's raw versus a mushroom that's been caramelized or roasted, that's umami on the other side. That's what it's about. Gooseberry. Hate them, but I had to buy them for so many months to get them. because you're sampling them to people so people know what they taste like? No idea. I have no idea. I've never had one. I just was like, I got to get gooseberry, so I have them in my fridge right now because I kind of was forgetting. You got a lot of gooseberries to eat up before you get to New Zealand. That's why they're in my fridge right now. Where do you find these? Whole Foods? Yeah, Whole Foods. Roger the Fruit King Adamson wants to know. If you treat regular ones the right way, but all the gooseberries in our are those fake ones, the Cape gooseberries that are like a tomatillo, they're bright orange. Yeah. They're those. They're like crunch to them. Those are disgusting. So what the hell is a Cape gooseberry? What the hell is a Cape gooseberry? Fresh thyme has the gooseberries, I think, too. Really? Is it a fruit? Not all the time. Cape gooseberries are more like a vegetable. They're like a tomatillo. No, they're not. Yeah, they are. They're in a husk. They just husk them. You don't see them. They are? because I just see them in the little package. I never see them husked. So if you see gooseberries that are orange, those are the Nouveau. They're native to South America. Whereas when people said gooseberries, they think of they're grown in rural areas or something that people would typically turn into pies or jams and jellies. They're extremely tart. They're like currents. Yes. Like a green current. They're green in color? Yeah, they're green. Gooseberries are green. Yeah. No. That's the only thing I knew about them. I just assumed they were some family of purplish berries. Have you ever seen those champagne grapes? They're like little round green grapes, and they're super sour even when they're ripe. Why do you have them? Why are you going to New Zealand? because there's a major aroma in Sancerre. You don't get a ton of gooseberry, a ton of gooseberry in New Zealand, Sauvignon Blanc. It's definitely there, but it lends itself more to the tropical grapefruit, green pippa. Green pippa. There are socks kits in my bedroom. That's there are six cats in my bedroom. Socks kits in my bedroom. I've been working on it. What, Grieg? Newly opened... Grieg? Grieg? Newly opened can of tennis balls. Ooh, I love that smell. Very unique smell. It's a smell upon itself, I think. It's a gaseous, gaseous, gaseous... It's ozone mixed with rubber. Yeah. Rubber, dude, for sure. But I think there's a sulfur thing going on there. It's a sulfur sort of... Oh, a sulfur thing, yeah. It's a... They literally cost a dollar fifty at Target. Go get a can of tennis balls and pop it open. Go get it and you'll never forget it, yeah. And then give them away to the next three dogs that you meet. Exactly, right, right. Pencil shavings. I think that gets... Lends itself to a bit of a minerality kind of thing, because you have a graphite but a wood. I think anybody who said this isn't being honest, because they know. Now, this is firmly in the wine realm, I think. That's a wine folk. I hear... Greg has totally disagreed. Boddingtons always tasted like pencil shavings to me. Boddingtons, huh? Dude, the spirits in small barrels always tastes like pencil shavings to me. Pencil shavings. Huge. Yeah, you're right. because it's like sawdust and then this underdeveloped spirit quality. Right. No, that's a legit... I don't think that's that weird. I think it's hard to pull it out. I just don't know how to read or write, so I'm unfamiliar with that aroma. No, this is pretty funny. No, I think so again, when people are asking these, are they asking for, you know, why they occur or when we notice them or the legitimacy of them or? No, man, this is Twitter. So yeah, I feel like they're asking them like, is that legit? Is it real? Yeah, it definitely is. Yeah, for sure. And in whiskey, I notice it from distilleries that are trying to hyperage whiskey in small barrels. Yep. I do too. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you're right. For sure. I'm gonna go back and taste it. Okay, is that it? That was Descriptors. Now, music break. And now, so Kristen, you have some big news for us. Bye. Really? Pictures like that? Yeah, just. I'm gonna go try my hand in the wine making side and see if that's the path. I've always been curious to know if I have what it takes. So anyway, we'll see how it goes there, but my chapter here at Binny's Beverage Depot is coming to an end, so. One more time. One more time. Thank you guys very much for listening to Barrel to Bottle, The Binny's Podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm Kristen. I'm Roger. I'm Pat. I'm Greg. Never stop tasting. And somebody we were tasting with once had no idea what nougat was or something. Yeah, it just was crazy to me, they didn't know. Three musketeers ruined everyone's understanding of nougat. That's not nougat, man, that's like marshmallow. Yeah, nougat's like the old school European style with like the nuts in it, yeah, yep. Whatever, that's a different podcast. just try not to drag Three musketeers though, okay? because that's a pretty quality candy bar. Yeah, that is a garbage candy bar. You know what? It is the filler material in both a Snickers and a Milky Way. It's the Chipotle rice of candy bars, but I appreciate that though, because you still get the chocolate and it's not like chewing like a piece of old shoe leather like a Snickers can be sometimes. Snickers is the best candy bar. You can't mess with it. It's too much. Everything is a derivative therein, but Snickers has it all. Perhaps in the M&M Morris family, but I mean, think outside. Well, also, the nougat in a Snickers is different than the nougat in a Three musketeers. You lie. Absolutely. What is that this thing even says? Yeah. There's more air in a Snickers. The nougat is thicker than a Three musketeers. Three musketeers, the whole thing is just light and fluffy. But I think that that's because that's what it is in a Snickers bar, and then the extra weight comes from the caramel and the peanuts. No, no, no. And then when they take it out. The nougat itself is thicker and chewier. We have to hit pause on this podcast and blind these things. I think even, yeah. We're going to carve out the nougat of those other candy bars and do a A, B. You guys will not pass the Pepsi Challenge on the nougat. The crunch, the soft, the sweet, the salt. Milky Way's too much caramel in it without the peanuts. Snickers is the perfect candy bar. I don't know, Milky Way's are pretty awesome. Yeah, but don't have no peanuts. Texturally, they're totally different experience. Any opinion on this that doesn't involve a Reese's product is the wrong opinion. But Pearson's Salted Nut Roll. Nobody gives a shit about Pearson's Salted Nut Roll. What kind of British grandma candy are you eating? It's a Midwest thing. Is it though? because we're pretty much in the heart of the Midwest and we hate you right now. To be fair, I hated him before. It was cool. Roger was about to tell us what soft and round means in beer.